Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student
Originally Posted by Pugilist
I think the simple solution would be for them to fight several times over the span of a few months to see who has teh Real TSP.
Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student
Originally Posted by It is Fake??
I really didn't have to time since his time in Seattle was filled with work BS. I only really studied the Metal and Wood fists, but I got great video of the other three.
I told him I was going to post them on youtube.com, but then he threatened to kill me [again].
It could be on pay-per-view!
Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
however I do not think this will happen so I choose to avoid lineage bickering and just train.
Tien Shan Pai
Go to linkungfu.com for background on Tien Shan Pai.
This is Willy Lin's website. On it you will see photos of all the legit Tien Shan Pai masters.
From 1960 to until 1970, Lin was the head instructor and assistant to Wang Jyue Jen, the late grandmaster of Tien Shan Pai.
Willy Lin brought the art to the U.S. & opened the first school in 1971.
gm Wang based the name of the art on a series of popular novels entitled "The Seven Swordsmen Of Tien Shan". It was really a brand name and meant to glom off the popularity of the novels.
Although the creation myth appears to be bogus ( this has been researched by Mr. Lin himself, who went to the mainland in seach of...), the forms & techniques are good.
Conversations with the late grandmaster's daughter and his wife have verified that Wang never appointed ANYONE to take over the system.
This has been further verified by all the Tien Shan senior masters on Taiwan.
I know both Mr. Lin & Mr. Huang.
There is another Tien Shan Pai master in Washington D.C.--Mr. C.C. Liu.
Master Liu backs up Mr. Lin's statements.
Compare the sites of Mr. Lin & Huang. Lin's is linkungfu.com
Huang's is tienshanpai.org
The 64th generation thing is definite bullshido. That would pre-date Shao Lin temple.
There is no evidence of extended lineage past one of Wang Jyue Jen's teachers, Ho Ta-sun.
I suggest you compare the differences in skill between the three masters' students and you will see immediately which are legit & which are bullshido.
It is pretty obvious.
I have suggested that the three masters all bring students to a common tournament and let the public be the judge.
Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student
Originally Posted by Karma dragon
Excellent. If you could verify some of what you said, that would go even further towards shredding Huang's story.
It's complex. There's b.s. flying all over about the art & about the masters.
Back in the 70's, I was an instructor at Lin's kung fu. I was there when Lin hired Huang. Huang told me that he had learned tai chi. Since Lin had hired him as an instructor, he had started learning the kung fu stuff.
The other instructors weren't too friendly with Huang since he didn't know that much kung fu. I got along well with him.
Lin was training him in kung fu. I was witness to that along with my classmate Dennis Brown. We also taught him some things.
As time passed , a school in Bethesda, Md. was opened. Huang & I went there to teach. Due to problems with the fire code of the building , the school was forced to close.
Huang decided to leave Lin & start his own school in Ohio.
When I was training in D.C., I was told the creation myth & supposed history of TSP.
I didn't care about all that stuff--just wanted to learn some kung fu.
NOW--- Huang claims to be the inheritor of TSP( the 64th or 65th generation ).
1. Grandmaster Wang's daughter says her dad never appointed anyone to take over the art.
2. All the senior masters on Taiwan say the same thing & a couple of them have open challenges to Huang , should he step foot on Taiwan( and come anywhere near them ).
3. Everyone I have talked with says gm Wang made up the origin & name of the art based on a series of popular Chinese novels.
4. Gm Wang's adopted god-daughter , Karen Vaughn,( who Huang claims as one of his disciples ) says Wang & Huang are liars ( her words--not mine ).
5. Lin went to China in search of the temple gm Wang described.
He confronted gm Wang & was told he had looked in the wrong place. Lin went back to China to the area gm Wang described. There never has been a temple there according to the locals. Lin again confronted gm Wang, who this time showed some embarrassment. Gm Wang wouldn't speak to Lin after that.
6. Common sense & a little math will tell you that there can't be 64 generations of TSP. That would pre-date Shao Lin temple.
I am going to the D.C. nationals this weekend ( hosted by Dennis Brown ).
I will interview Karen Vaughn & take her statements . She actually lived in Taiwan- training with gm Wang. She not only ran a TSP school in Ohio but also loaned Huang the money to open his studio. She's an insider.
In October I am going to Taiwan to interview the senior TSP masters and get their side of the story along with as many signed affidavits as possible.
What I have so far is personal knowledge of Huang & Lin. I have photos showing Huang as just another instructor at Lin's back in the 70's. I have dvds of gm Wang, Huang, Karen Vaughn, Tony Lin, & others doing demos.
These are from the last years of gm Wang's life. He introduced C.C. Liu, Huang, & Tony Lin as his students. It was a perfect time to introduce the next TSP grandmaster---it didn't happen.
In the video, it's obvious that Huang was in a more minor role than the others ( espescially at the end when awards are handed out ).
As best as I can tell TODAY ( after interviewing many people )--
TSP doesn't exist in China. The name was used by gm wang to promote himself.
Wang claimed to learn the art from Ho Ta-sun. Since Wang apparently lied to his own instructor ( Lin ) , how do we really know this to be true ?
If it is true , then Ho Ta-sun is the first generation.
Gm Wang is the second generation.
Lin, C.C. Liu, Tony Lin, & Huang are the third generation--not 64th.
The sad truth is that much of the art is pretty good. Now the TSP people have to suffer because some guy built his house on a foundation of lies & half-truths.
Another indicater of possible b.s. is that the International Kuo Shu Federation recently kicked Huang & two other reps out of their organization, revoking their certification , rank, and referee status due to unethical behavior ( breaking federation rules ).
I have a copy of that document signed by Yang Jui Fong ( president of the federation ).
The other orgs that Huang lists all were created by Huang himself, to which his own instructors elected him president.
When confronted, Huang asks why people are trying to destroy him. He talks about all the good things he has done ( he has done some ).
There are several folks who admit to teaching Huang. Huang denies they taught him anything. I hope to meet with some of them & procure signed statements.
To hear Huang talk, everyone else is a liar except him.
I hope the TSP folk can appreciate my efforts to find the real truth.
I am a kuk sool won practitioner. I should be spending time on that art & not TSP lore.
So many people have asked me to clear up this mess ( since I know Huang & Lin ). I will do what I can.
Recently, a person came to my studio who learned TSP in Ohio from one of Huang's instructors. He knew about 11 forms and had practiced there for a few years.
I filmed him. The stuff was absolute garbage. There's no way his instructor could mess something up that much ---by accident. This makes the entire Huang bunch suspect.
I should have much more documentation by the end of the year.
At this point I would recommend Lin's website linkungfu.com
and Dennis Brown as sources of non-b.s. concerning TSP.
Thanks for all your effort and time, Karma Dragon. I started training at one of Huang's instructor's schools this past spring and I am very interested in the relationship between the students of GM Wang. Regarding the person that came to your studio from Ohio, can you offer any comments on what was so bad about his form? The upper students and instructors from my school seem to do fairly well at tournaments in both form and full contact fighting but I am somewhat concerned by your suggestion that Huang and his students are suspect. I have not net Huang in person, but he does teach an invitation-only black sash class at my school once per week.
Again, thanks for your effort, it is greatly appreciated.
Yes--the forms were sloppy and the fundamental motion used was not correct.
There were moves missing & other ones that had been inserted from other forms.
The person I mentioned came from a Cincinatti school.
I really hope that there are some decent instructors at Huang's.
The instructors only know what Huang told them about his personal history & credentials. His mistakes are NOT their fault.
They are soon going to have to decide whether to stick with a suspect organization or go independant. There's overwhelming evidence that
Huang has invented much about himself.
I am against any lies that have been told.
Are you aware of any online resources or literature that could be use as a supplement to/check on the school curriculum? It would be helpful to have some sort of reference for the forms. I know that Lin published a book in the 80s titled "T'ien Shan P'ai" but it is out of print. I have not been able to locate a copy, but perhaps it goes into some detail regarding the curriculum.
Yes White Knight--
Willy Lin wrote the Tien Shan Pai book. It has been out of print a few years and can be had on e bay.
Lin recently bought back the rights to his book & will either reprint it or convert it to dvd.
It is a general description of the system & does not list a specific lesson plan.
On Lin's website ( linkungfu.com), he is selling instructional dvds.
He plans to put the entire system on dvd to preserve the original way he was taught by gm Wang.
He has asked all TSP instructors to use these as a standard way to teach the forms, 2 person sets, & weapons of the system.
In a recent phone interview, he told me that some guys were already claiming to be his disciples. He said he only had two & they are listed on his website.
Huang's website lists some forms that were NOT part of the original lesson plan.
None of the forms ( even the ones called Tien Shan whatever ) really came from a style called Tien Shan Pai.
For example 'Tien Shan Sword'
The actual name is through-the-heart-sword.
Gm Wang could call it whatever he wanted because he made up the history himself.
Huang says a lot of things since gm Wang is dead & unable to dispute him.
Let me be clear that there are probably some good decent people teaching for Huang. These folks may be skilled.
None of this historical controversy is on them. It all goes on Huang's head.
It is both natural & honorable that they would stand by their sifu. When you find out someone you trusted has led you on & lied to you , it is very dissappointing. Been there--felt that.
It is up to each individual to either forgive & forget OR to distance themselves from that person so that their own good reputation is not tarnished.
With all the people coming foreward and saying the same thing about TSP ( including Huang's own disciples ) evidence is mounting against his story.
The instructors who stay are likely to be discredited right along with Huang.