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  1. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2005 12:38am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have since spoken to a few people....but those conversations and the earlier mentioned rotten tomatoes thread have died. Apparently there is no information on the subject, so things will continue with a 64th grandmaster and blah blah blah.
  2. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2005 3:21am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, I completely spaced out that I was going to look into this. Okay, here is what I (with my wife, the translator in the house!) found. Tien Shen Pai in Chinese (天山派) means literally heaven-mountain-school.

    My wife and I took a look at Prof. Kang Ge Wus(康戈武)one volume encyclopedia of Chinese martial arts. Prof. Kang is considered one of the top historians working in the field of Chinese martial arts history and his encyclopedia is viewed as being fairly definitive (well, as definitive as anything can be about Chinese martial arts history).

    And---no mention of Tien Shen Pai; none, zero, zip, nada. Now in all fairness there are literally thousands of tiny, what I call "Mom and Pop Chinese martial arts systems" out there. After all in the late Qing dynasty every little village and hamlet had their own kung fu system and they all had real big face esoteric names.

    But what the lack of any mention in Prof. Kang book indicates to me is that Tien Shen Pai is a very minor system, probably with a fairly recent vintage.

    Turning to the world wide web (in Chinese) the only real mention of Tien Shen Pai that we could find were for a couple of Chinese New Age Taoist qi gong places. They have picked up the name because it sounds real cool.

    What it is going to boil down to, I suspect, is you got the Tien Shen Pai guys who are alive (Willy Lin and those folks) are going to claim x, y, or z (oh our system is a million years old, handed down from Taoist albino monks) but there is no proof of that other than their say so.


    So that is what I know of that.

    Take care,
    Brian
    Last edited by brianlkennedy; 8/20/2005 3:25am at .
  3. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2005 4:53am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a few thoughts from another traditional CMAist...

    First, names are easily lost to history, changed due to personal preference, and taken from one art to refer to another. How is this so? Example:

    Yiliquan is the current name of the art I study. It is appropriate to the way the curriculum is structured and presented today. However...

    What was eventually to become Yiliquan was originally unnamed. It was a corroboration on technique and forms between two men, one a Xingyiquan "master" and the other a former Shaolin priest. They taught their methods to two men, both of whom eventually retired to the Shaolin temple. They taught one man, who taught two others. Through one of those two men, the art was called Chin Shou Ssu, passed on through four more generations, until that fourth generation renamed the art Baixingquan. At this point (six generations so far), Taijiquan was added. It passed through another four generations, absorbing Baguazhang training along the way from several "masters" in the system, and was renamed Nei Shou. Two generations later, my teacher was the headmaster and first renamed it Baixingquan to honor its prior history, but years later renamed it Yiliquan to better reflect the philosophy of the art.

    Thirteen generations, at least four different names, and that's just on THIS BRANCH of the lineage tree (remember it split around the third generation).

    If your training satisfies your needs, who cares about the name.

    And when I get back to Fort Lewis, I'd love to get a TMA throwdown together. Don't forget about the Martial University event held up in Bellevue every year, either. Great venue... Email me if you don't know anything about it.

    Pax.
  4. Quikfeet509 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2005 9:50am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually I was never quite sure about the name. My shifu just called it "Northern Style Boxing". He didn't care much for names either. If it works, you could call it "happy pony left foot style". Who cares?


    But I thought I found the name of the style so when I stumbled upon this big steaming pile of **** controversy, I tried to find out more. Tien Shan Pai, as performed by Willy Lin, has some similarties but also a number of differences. Oh well. Probably the end of the road here.


    I would love a TMA throwdown, although it would require me to train...hmmm...

    I am also unfamilar with the Martial University in Bellevue.
  5. citrus538 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2005 2:18pm


     Style: brazilian jazz dance

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What else did Dr. Yang say about Tian Shan Pai? I know a lot of his material can be traced to the Nanjing Central Guo Shu Institute, so he may have more to say about this style now that you have an actual book.

    Hmmm. . .looking at this page:
    http://www.northernshaolinacademy.co...Curriculum.asp

    It looks like much of Dr. Yang's long fist curriculum with additional mantis forms, which would make sense given that both can be traced to the Nan Jing Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan. My money is on "fancy name with fancy history."
  6. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2005 11:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by citrus538
    What else did Dr. Yang say about Tian Shan Pai? I know a lot of his material can be traced to the Nanjing Central Guo Shu Institute, so he may have more to say about this style now that you have an actual book.

    Hmmm. . .looking at this page:
    http://www.northernshaolinacademy.co...Curriculum.asp

    It looks like much of Dr. Yang's long fist curriculum with additional mantis forms, which would make sense given that both can be traced to the Nan Jing Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan. My money is on "fancy name with fancy history."
    Here is a snip from his bio page:
    Sigung Smith continued his martial arts studies in Los Angeles, California, where he had the honor of studying under Grandmaster Ark Y. Wong. There he learned the art of Tiger-Crane (Five Pattern Fist), Mok-Gar, Tai Mantis and a family style of Wing Chun.

    In the 1970s Sigung Smith came back to the east coast and studied Tien Shan Pai (Northern Shaolin Kungfu ) under Grandmaster Willy Lin, Master Dennis Brown and Co-Teacher Shirfu Thomas Hardy.
    Which explains diversity. I wish there were videos to see what they are doing. From the photos, it looks unballanced a bit.

    I always assumed there was a place or a temple called celestial mountain where it came from.
    We are surrounded by warships and dont have time to talk. Please pray for us. One Somali Pirate.
  7. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 1:51am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by citrus538
    What else did Dr. Yang say about Tian Shan Pai? I know a lot of his material can be traced to the Nanjing Central Guo Shu Institute, so he may have more to say about this style now that you have an actual book.

    Hmmm. . .looking at this page:
    http://www.northernshaolinacademy.co...Curriculum.asp

    It looks like much of Dr. Yang's long fist curriculum with additional mantis forms, which would make sense given that both can be traced to the Nan Jing Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan. My money is on "fancy name with fancy history."


    Not much other than he had heard of it when he was in Taiwan, that it was popular there, and it was a derivative of northern shaolin.
  8. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 1:54am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    Here is a snip from his bio page:


    Which explains diversity. I wish there were videos to see what they are doing. From the photos, it looks unballanced a bit.

    I always assumed there was a place or a temple called celestial mountain where it came from.


    Looking at the same pics (I think), the postures look slightly different then what I did (just like Willy Lin's book looked different).
  9. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 2:49am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If there is Tien Shen Pai now days in Taiwan, they are keeping it hidden out of the mainstream Taiwanese martial arts view. I am a faithful reader of Taiwan Wu Lin magazine (Taiwan's only martial arts magazine) and I have never seen anything about Tien Shen Pai.

    Although I need to add that over the past twenty or thirty years Taiwan has lost a lot of its martial arts diversity. What I mean by that is back in the 1950s and 60s you had a wide variety of different systems being practiced here. This was due to the big influx of mainlanders (mostly KMT guys).

    That older generation was unable/unwilling to pass most of these systems onto a new generation so Taiwan has lost most of the systems that were practiced here thirty years ago. At this point I would guess 90% of the Taiwanese "martial artists" are either kids doing tae kwon do, college kids doing judo (judo is pretty big here in Taiwan) and older guys (like me!) doing Yang taiji.

    take care,
    Brian
  10. Sifu Stier is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2005 9:34pm


     Style: Shen Men Tao

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Sifu Huang Chien-Liang

    Hello everyone:

    I have personally known Master Huang Chien-Liang for many years time...and regularly see him at the various Chinese Martial Arts Competitions held in the USA each year. I have also seen him perform Tien Shan Pai in the Master's Demonstrations which most of us who serve as Judges and Officials at these events participate in. He is the real deal. Sifu Huang and Tien Shan Pai are both well known and respected among Traditional Chinese Martail Arts Masters of all styles.

    Sifu Stier
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