Tien Shan Pai possible Bullshido - Long

**tienshanwarrior** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 9:39am

I agree, it will awsome to see what other people are training. I was also training, but 2 weeks ago a broke a toe in the gym, damn those weigths!!! ; )
Once I am back in shape I will prepare a short video with some of the techniques I was taught.

As for the beer thingy, I prefer green tea myself : p

Bill

**Bang!** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 11:20am

Seriously, if it works, it works. If there's a non-conventional (read: MMA-style) approach that's effective, then it's definitely worth learning about. Plus, if it's silly, we can make fun of you, you big chunk of Irish genetics.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 11:31am

I don't really mind being made fun of, just as long as I am the center of attention.

Edit: I mixed up some names in the first post. Sean Marshall is the one asking the questions, and Jonathan Miller was the spokesperson for Mr. Huang. I was refering to Sean Marshall as Sean Miller. Sorry for the confusion, but I constantly suffer from the fact that all white people look the same to me.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 11:51am

That must be confusing at home, because they don't come much whiter than you.

See, now you're the centre of attention!

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 11:55am

Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey

That must be confusing at home, because they don't come much whiter than you.

See, now you're the centre of attention!

Yes, it can be confusing. Explains the therapy.

[/off topic rambling]

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/10/2005 12:07pm

Originally Posted by tienshanwarrior

I agree, it will awsome to see what other people are training. I was also training, but 2 weeks ago a broke a toe in the gym, damn those weigths!!! ; )
Once I am back in shape I will prepare a short video with some of the techniques I was taught.

As for the beer thingy, I prefer green tea myself : p

Bill

I remembered last night that I do have some pictures of almost everything I learned in Tien Shan Pai. I took them as part of my final project for Pascal I (1996) when I had my brilliant "let's be a computer programmer for a semester".

The problem is that I progressed much farther then where I was at when I took the pictures so they are slightly embarrasing to look at. Plus I was 75 pounds lighter and had really bad hair. Oh, and since we usually trained at night in a big field, we usually wore black so people were less likely to see us and even less less likely to initiate a converstation (still happened sometimes though). So I am wearing a black outfit with white gloves (to keep the sweat from making my fist slip) in the middle of the day. Oh, and I had stupid hair.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/11/2005 2:37pm

Originally Posted by brianlkennedy

I will need to check some Chinese language sources later today but..if I remember right the confirmable history of Tien Shen Pai basically goes back to a couple of KMT guys here in Taiwan circa 1970 or so. As is the norm, they decided to get together, form a "school", give it a name, get it registered with the ROC government (to start getting some government stipends) and then---post date their history by about a thousand years.

This was a very common practice among Taiwanese martial arts organizations. I will try and look into the specifics a bit later.

take care,
Brian

Damn I noticed that you have posted like 8 times in 3 years. Glad that this thread drew you out and I look forward to any information that you may gather.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/11/2005 2:41pm

I recieved an email from my shifu this morning and he said his teacher began training with the teacher from China probably in the early 50s. This might contradict the notion that the style began later in Taiwan. Or it might not, especially if the people in Taiwan learned some of it before they began teaching it locally in Taiwan.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 7/12/2005 6:15pm

Quikfeet, I did review the threads you recommended and searched the Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia by Corcoran and Farkas and Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts by Robert W. Smith and Donn Draeger. Neither books mention this art which only means that the art is obscure. If I were you I would contact Robert F. Smith, whom you may be able to find on the internet because he's just published a new book. (Matt Bernus wrote a review of it here on Bullshido) If you can't locate Smith directly you might want to write him through his publisher.

I agree the 64 generations sounds ridiculous but I also find the uniform figure of 50 years per generation rather far fetched, remember that people usually died earlier without the care of modern medicine so a grandmastership could turn over multiple times in a short period due to war or death.

The last possiblitity is that the art that you study is not the same one in the kungfu mag and some teacher in northern china used a name he had heard before, or which sounded good, but which had no connection to the art taught in Taiwan. the most relevant question is which part of china did the tien shan pai teacher come from before he arrived at Taiwan, it would be useful to know.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/12/2005 6:43pm

I have one of Robert W. Smith's books, "Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods". It is a great read and quite entertaining. I never thought about contacting him, but I might try that avenue.

My teacher doesn't talk with his teacher (or teacher's teacher) anymore. My teacher had natural ability and after 9 months of hardcore training, he replaced the previous senior student that had been there for years. Eventually my teacher left and became a ROK marine, then came to the US to get a degree, and eventually moved back. When he returned to Korea, he found that the other senior student that he had replaced was now in charge of the school. My teacher asked for some certificates to give to me and my friend, and almost got into a fight, was asked to not come back, blah blah blah.

But from what my teacher said, his teacher moved far to the south in Korea and is still teaching. He said that the style that his shifu is teaching is different than before and that it takes much longer to get good at...a guess would be some sort of nei dan style but once again, that would be conjecture.

I'll keep bugging my teacher, but it sounds like he is working very hard and long hours and not making much money (sounds familar) so he doesn't really like to dwell on his training days anymore. But he did mention that his teacher's teacher was from north east China, not Taiwan. I will ask again if he knows specifics, but I doubt he really cares much. I already feel like I am inferring too much from my communications with him because his English is poor and I am attempting to fill in the blanks in our conversations with what I know, which is a dangerous thing to do considering the lack of information / misinformation on the topic.

Oh, but from the only book published on the topic in English, I did see more similarities between the style presented by Willy Lin and anything I have ever seen, be it books, magazine, demonstration, or video. I hope this isn't a dead end. Thanks Sam for your help.