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  1. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2006 9:27pm


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Karma dragon
    Quik feet--

    Check out pages 14 & 15 on the rotten tomatoes discusion of Tien Shan pai.

    punch in Tien Shan Pai and look for the site that says "discussion of it all" . On there I am Dragon karma.

    I am headed to Taiwan to get the goods from the late grandmaster Wang's wife & daughter. There's more info than you can stand on the tomatoes forum.

    I'll be back in the U.S. in 2 weeks with much more evidence.


    I f you want a copy of the 1982 Tien Shan Pai demo held in Baltimore, send me an address & i'll mail you a free copy.

    ghgause@sbcglobal.net

    I'll definitely take you up on the offer. I made it through the beginning of that Rotten Tomatoes thread, but I had to take a break.



    Gang Bai [I think that means "cheers"]
  2. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 9:21am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Karma Dragon, thanks for the video. My kung fu brother and I watched it last night after hours of drinking Belgium ales...


    Anyway, what was your opinion of the forms shown on the DVD?
  3. Mr. Mantis is offline
    Mr. Mantis's Avatar

    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2006 11:01am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is anybody willing to make these forms available for viewing? I'd like to see.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  4. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 1:07am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    Is anybody willing to make these forms available for viewing? I'd like to see.


    Sorry that I didn't see your post for several weeks.



    Karma dragon sent me the DVD of the "forms" and they are god-awful. My older kung fu brother and I watched the DVD and he pointed out that most of the forms were copied from various shaolin forms and done very poorly. Even the higher level folks [grandmasters, supreme ultimate masters, whatever] were bad.


    To sound all chinky, my kung fu brother said that even the highest ranking members moved as if they never trained properly to get the root of proper movement, so everything they did was based off an incorrect base.



    As for posting the vids, I lack the ability to convert or host the DVD. Plus it is from old VHS footage so any more converting would probably make it even harder to watch. If you have any ideas, let me know.
  5. shen guang long is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 6:19am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HI I´am new in this forum and training Tien shan pai kung fu for over 8 years now. I am in lingage of grand master huang and i am studying under sifu alexander czech in Germany.
    I am in this topic since the rotten dot com thing and still came to the point something is wrong here. But many discussing and head yilding doesn´t made my kung fu better. So I just accept that there could be so much story or lying or discussing what ever. I´ve bin to china to mount wudang and friendly crossed hands in tou shou with many masters and students. I showed them mine they showed me theirs. And I earned much respect specially for my traditional kung fu and tai chi.

    It is not the system wich makes good or bad kung fu , Tai chi , hsing i practicionars. It is the Teacher and in first instance the practicioner himself. Proof yourself and proof your teacher that is an important thing. I don´t know if grandmaster huang lies or not. I can´t proof it and also i am not keen to proof. I don´t see him that often. But If one really whants to come to the point of Gongfu in my opinion he has to train and discover himself. this is the way to cultivate real strengh. Fight a lot and you get a good fighter, Calm your mind and practice tai chi and qi gong and you will have benefit of it. If your forms are correct or not you can see if you understrand what you are doing if you have an application that works you are doing right. Because Forms change from master to master. the important thing is that the technique works and there is no dancing like in modern wushu.

    regards

    shen guang long


    less talk more rock

    I saw some vids of Grandmaster or master Willy lin and some vids of his students on you tube. just enter "tien shan pai" there are nice vids of supreme master wang.

    I will make some vids and post them that you can build your own oppinion
  6. jdinca is offline
    jdinca's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 11:43am


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shen guang long
    HI I´am new in this forum and training Tien shan pai kung fu for over 8 years now. I am in lingage of grand master huang and i am studying under sifu alexander czech in Germany.
    I am in this topic since the rotten dot com thing and still came to the point something is wrong here. But many discussing and head yilding doesn´t made my kung fu better. So I just accept that there could be so much story or lying or discussing what ever. I´ve bin to china to mount wudang and friendly crossed hands in tou shou with many masters and students. I showed them mine they showed me theirs. And I earned much respect specially for my traditional kung fu and tai chi.

    It is not the system wich makes good or bad kung fu , Tai chi , hsing i practicionars. It is the Teacher and in first instance the practicioner himself. Proof yourself and proof your teacher that is an important thing. I don´t know if grandmaster huang lies or not. I can´t proof it and also i am not keen to proof. I don´t see him that often. But If one really whants to come to the point of Gongfu in my opinion he has to train and discover himself. this is the way to cultivate real strengh. Fight a lot and you get a good fighter, Calm your mind and practice tai chi and qi gong and you will have benefit of it. If your forms are correct or not you can see if you understrand what you are doing if you have an application that works you are doing right. Because Forms change from master to master. the important thing is that the technique works and there is no dancing like in modern wushu.

    regards

    shen guang long


    less talk more rock

    I saw some vids of Grandmaster or master Willy lin and some vids of his students on you tube. just enter "tien shan pai" there are nice vids of supreme master wang.

    I will make some vids and post them that you can build your own oppinion
    This thread is two years old. I'm pretty sure that Master Czech and GM Huang would rather it not be brought back to life. Let it lay.
  7. sahng is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2008 5:41pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: jung sim do, tkd, tsd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    don't know how old this thread is cause i'm new and don't pay attention to the stuff, butt tian shan pai means heavenly mountain school/style/system and should be identified more so as a system than style because it combines various martial arts practices ,mainly internal and chin na. it's more a style of kuoshu(mandarin for national martial art) than wushu and it's pretty much modern. tian shen pai comes from Shan Tian/Tian Shan/Mt.Heaven. This system IS REAL and the only art so far that i've seen as fake is long system combative arts or guge gongji, this style is authentically fake and it supposed to be a rare style. i am looking into it and when i find out it's fake i'm telling every martial arts organization of chinese styles because i want to expose this hei long guy who isn't even chinese and he sems to be going with whatever is popular in the martial arts at the moment. look the thread about lian shi kung fu up on this site because i'm posting an e-mail conversation that this guy and i had. i may have insulted him a little but just listen to the bullshido that this guy says. and check his site out too and see if you can see where he's set himself up for suspicion@longsystemcombativearts.com
  8. rocky43 is offline

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2009 4:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    a lot of folks don't know the real history of Tien Shan Pai kung fu... here is a piece from Grandmaster Willy Lins webstie... www.linkungfu.com
    ]
    To tell what is true is always respectful. In this spirit, I would like to talk about what has remained a "gray area" with respect to the history of our system, for too many years. What I say is based on personal knowledge, documentation and recollection.

    The Martial Art system, today known as "Tien Shan Pai," did not originate centuries ago. It was founded by my teacher, Wang, Jyue Jen, in the late 1940s. There are no sixty five or sixty six generations in our system. There are, presently, only three... possibly four generations in our lineage.

    While it is correct that Master Wang often told students his curriculum originated with a Buddhist priest named Red Cloud, at a temple at “T’ien Shan” (Sky Mountain) in the Xinjiang Province of northwestern China, it is not true that there is now, or ever has been any historical connection between Master Wang’s curriculum, and the Sky Mountain Chinese countryside. There is no temple. There never has been.

    By stating this, I do not intend to discredit or demean anyone…living or dead. I do this because, in this age of “transparency,” followers of Tien Shan Pai… both present and future… have the right to accurate information about our origins. I am speaking out now, because these same parties have the right to this, before those of us who lived through it have all passed on.

    At the time my teacher came to Taiwan in the late 1940s, (as a member of Chiang Kai Shek’s armed forces,) there was no political relationship between Taiwan and mainland China. There was no expectation that any claim my teacher made, (as it related to what did or did not happen in mainland China,) would be checked, or scrutinized.

    The truth is, back in the 1940s and 1950s, such claims didn’t matter. My teacher was a skilled Gwo-Shu (Chinese Martial Arts) Coach. We all believed this because we saw him demonstrate his high level of skill. We knew he had taught Martial Arts in Chiang Kai Shek’s army. This combination… of his demonstrated skill, as well as his military resume… was enough for us to take him at his word.

    My teacher always said he was a Gwo-Shu Coach. Nothing more. He taught what he knew… what he had been trained in through the Central (Chinese) Government’s Nanjing Gwo-Shu Academy, and what he had learned from his various private teachers. This totality of his Martial Arts experience formed the basis for his “curriculum.”

    By “curriculum” I mean those techniques and forms which any given Master teaches to his or her students for profit. If he or she intends for that curriculum to be preserved and passed on to a “next generation,” then he or she identifies certain senior students as “disciples.” Once disciples are initiated, it is clear that the Master’s intention is for his curriculum to have a “life going forward.” Once the Master’s curriculum has, in fact, been transferred to a “next generation” (through that Master’s disciples,) that curriculum can be considered a “system.” Once a system has been created, the disciples of that system can define and place themselves within its lineage.

    From the time my teacher began to train his first students in Taichung, Taiwan, (and through the entire time I worked for him as his Assistant and Head Instructor,) he never suggested that he was in the “lineage” of any system. He only said he was teaching us “Gwo-Shu.” However, because he took on several disciples, it was clear he intended that his curriculum be preserved, and passed along.

    Wang’s curriculum worked. We were able to win competitions, defend ourselves when necessary, and to earn the respect of our fellow Martial Artists, whatever their “school,” in Taiwan.

    As a testament to how good of a coach our teacher was: In 1964, the Taiwan government assembled a “team” to demonstrate Gwo-Shu at the Tokyo Olympics. Master Wang was one of the Coaches for this team. Four of his students (myself included) were members of this team.

    In the mid-1980s, (after political relationships had been established between the US and mainland China,) I (as an American citizen) went to Sky Mountain in Xinjiang Province. I did so, because I wanted to find Red Cloud’s Temple, and to pay respects to that place which, I had been told, was the of origin of our system. I was devastated when I found no evidence at Sky Mountain to corroborate any part of my teacher’s story.

    Upon returning from this trip, I questioned my teacher. He suggested I had not looked on the “correct side of the lake”, that I had not found the “historical footprints left in the ground by Red Cloud”, etc. I made several trips back to Sky Mountain. I enlisted the aid of the Xinjiang Wu-Shu Association get to the bottom of my confusion.

    Their conclusion, after doing research, was that there was no Temple on Sky Mountain... either in recorded papers, or in the lore of the local people. In support of this statement about the oral history of the area, they presented several very old local shepherds who testified they had been born in the area of Sky Mountain, and that their families had tended flocks on Sky Mountain, (as well as on neighboring mountains,) for generations. They had neither heard of any such Temple through family stories, nor had they seen any such Temple with their own eyes.

    I, once again, spoke with my teacher. I told him what I had learned, and his response was that we would not speak about this again. I was left to conclude that my teacher had originated the story of Red Cloud for his own reasons and to suit his own purpose.

    Not liking to think badly of someone I had so respected, I convinced myself that, if my teacher wanted to say that a legend (which he had used to teach us Martial Arts virtue) was suddenly “historical” and not “apocryphal,” I would let it pass. As his disciple, it would have been disrespectful for me to challenge him... so I kept quiet.

    The naming of our system as “Tien Shan Pai” in the US, was my doing. It happened in 1971…years before my teacher ever used “Tien Shan Pai” to refer to what he was teaching. I named it “Tien Shan Pai.”

    When I opened my first Lin Kung Fu school in the US, (in 1971,) I told my instructors to refer to the curriculum we were teaching as “Tien Shan Pai.” I did so for several reasons: 1) We were constantly asked by our students what “system” we were teaching. 2) I knew we were only teaching Master Wang’s curriculum. I knew no other style to teach, (since Master Wang had been my only Martial Art teacher.) and 3) As one of Master Wang’s disciples, I understood that he intended for his curriculum to be passed on to future generations.

    Therefore, I felt all right referring to my teacher’s curriculum as Tien Shan Pai. I had no problem with acknowledging Tien Shan Pai as our “system,” because it, in fact, had become one…complete with disciples, all trained by Wang, Jyue Jen!

    Let me be clear: Although I was the one to introduce Master Wang’s curriculum to the US, to name it “Tien Shan Pai”, and to popularize “Tien Shan Pai” in the US as a system, I have never claimed either it, or the name “Tien Shan Pai” for myself. I have always credited it back to my teacher, Wang Jyue Jen.

    In 1976, my publishers suggested that I title my first book TIEN SHAN PAI KUNG FU to distinguish it from other Kung Fu books on the market at that time. This was when the name “Tien Shan Pai” gained wide recognition. By the time my next book, (T’IEN SHAN P’AI CHIN-NA: THE GRAPPLING ART OF SELF DEFENSE VOLUME I) was published (in 1981,) Master Wang, himself, had chosen to use the name “Tien Shan Pai” when talking about what he was teaching.

    By the late 1970’s, my non-American Lin Kung Fu instructors… Tony Lin (my brother), C.C. Liu, and Chien-Liang Huang… (all of whom I had sponsored to come to the US to help me in my school,) had moved on. They were operating their own individual and unaffiliated studios under the umbrella system name of “Tien Shan Pai.” I raised no objection. This was seen as good for us all, and good for our teacher, as well.

    In 1981, while my teacher was visiting the US, Tony Lin sponsored an exhibition of “Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu” in Baltimore, MD. Participating in that exhibition were Tony Lin, C.C. Liu, and Chien-Liang Huang, along with their students, and Master Wang, himself. During this exhibition, carved commemorative swords were given to Tony, Liu, and Huang by Master Wang. I understand that each sword acknowledged, by name, its recipient as a student/disciple of Master Wang.

    As I was out of the country on business at the time, I did not participate in the Baltimore exhibition. I did not receive a commemorative sword.

    I understand, also, at this same time, commemorative swords were distributed to students of Chien-Liang Huang, (who had paid for these swords, themselves.) The carving on these swords identified the student-recipients as the sixty fifth generation of “Tien Shan Pai.”

    In 1999, while in Taiwan, and visiting a senior classmate, (Wu Ming Jer,) I learned something I had never known before. (Wu Ming Jer is also a disciple of Wang Jyue Jen. He is older than I, and renowned for his fighting ability.)

    Wu Ming Jer showed me his personal scrapbook, which included newspaper articles from 1957. When he showed me these articles, he told how, when he needed to fill out his application for the 1957 Taiwan-Hong Kong-Macau Tournament, there was a space that asked what “system” he was trained in. Wu Ming Jer did not have an answer. He asked our teacher what to fill in, and Master Wang told him to use the words “Tien Shan Pai.”

    Wu Ming Jer went on to win this prestigious fighting competition, and the event was reported in the Taiwan newspapers. To anyone’s knowledge, this is the first time that “Tien Shan Pai” was publicly linked to that curriculum which our teacher taught.

    Curiously, even after Wu’s stunning achievement… the result of which was that Master Wang’s own reputation as a Gwo-Shu coach was enhanced, and his Lei Sheng Wu Yuan school prospered even more… my teacher never mentioned the words “T’ien Shan P’ai” to his students. He didn’t use “T’ien Shan P’ai” in any publicity about, or in any programs printed by his school for school-sponsored exhibitions or demonstrations… at least through 1974. I have a Lei Sheng Wu Yuan exhibition program in my possession from that year, (written both in Chinese and in English,) which substantiates this.

    Marketing and legend-building strategies to the contrary, I can clearly state that my teacher’s curriculum, (now known as the system of “Tien Shan Pai,”) originated with Master Wang himself. My teacher should be credited as the founder of this relatively “new” system. His disciples are the ones correctly identified as the first generation in the lineage of this system. The disciples of the First Generation Disciples are the ones to make up Tien Shan Pai’s subsequent generations.

    In conclusion, I would like to say how I stand united in sentiment with my fellow classmates in Taiwan, (who are also disciples of Wang, Jyue Jen.) We recognize that any disciple of our teacher is a disciple in our system, (now known as “Tien Shan Pai.”.) We affirm that our teacher had many disciples, all of whom are equally vested in the lineage of our system, and that the future of “Tien Shan Pai,” is the responsibility of us all.
  9. rocky43 is offline

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    Mar 2009
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2009 5:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    opps, here is the post again
    To tell what is true is always respectful. In this spirit, I would like to talk about what has remained a "gray area" with respect to the history of our system, for too many years. What I say is based on personal knowledge, documentation and recollection.

    The Martial Art system, today known as "Tien Shan Pai," did not originate centuries ago. It was founded by my teacher, Wang, Jyue Jen, in the late 1940s. There are no sixty five or sixty six generations in our system. There are, presently, only three... possibly four generations in our lineage.

    While it is correct that Master Wang often told students his curriculum originated with a Buddhist priest named Red Cloud, at a temple at “T’ien Shan” (Sky Mountain) in the Xinjiang Province of northwestern China, it is not true that there is now, or ever has been any historical connection between Master Wang’s curriculum, and the Sky Mountain Chinese countryside. There is no temple. There never has been.

    By stating this, I do not intend to discredit or demean anyone…living or dead. I do this because, in this age of “transparency,” followers of Tien Shan Pai… both present and future… have the right to accurate information about our origins. I am speaking out now, because these same parties have the right to this, before those of us who lived through it have all passed on.

    At the time my teacher came to Taiwan in the late 1940s, (as a member of Chiang Kai Shek’s armed forces,) there was no political relationship between Taiwan and mainland China. There was no expectation that any claim my teacher made, (as it related to what did or did not happen in mainland China,) would be checked, or scrutinized.

    The truth is, back in the 1940s and 1950s, such claims didn’t matter. My teacher was a skilled Gwo-Shu (Chinese Martial Arts) Coach. We all believed this because we saw him demonstrate his high level of skill. We knew he had taught Martial Arts in Chiang Kai Shek’s army. This combination… of his demonstrated skill, as well as his military resume… was enough for us to take him at his word.

    My teacher always said he was a Gwo-Shu Coach. Nothing more. He taught what he knew… what he had been trained in through the Central (Chinese) Government’s Nanjing Gwo-Shu Academy, and what he had learned from his various private teachers. This totality of his Martial Arts experience formed the basis for his “curriculum.”

    By “curriculum” I mean those techniques and forms which any given Master teaches to his or her students for profit. If he or she intends for that curriculum to be preserved and passed on to a “next generation,” then he or she identifies certain senior students as “disciples.” Once disciples are initiated, it is clear that the Master’s intention is for his curriculum to have a “life going forward.” Once the Master’s curriculum has, in fact, been transferred to a “next generation” (through that Master’s disciples,) that curriculum can be considered a “system.” Once a system has been created, the disciples of that system can define and place themselves within its lineage.

    From the time my teacher began to train his first students in Taichung, Taiwan, (and through the entire time I worked for him as his Assistant and Head Instructor,) he never suggested that he was in the “lineage” of any system. He only said he was teaching us “Gwo-Shu.” However, because he took on several disciples, it was clear he intended that his curriculum be preserved, and passed along.

    Wang’s curriculum worked. We were able to win competitions, defend ourselves when necessary, and to earn the respect of our fellow Martial Artists, whatever their “school,” in Taiwan.

    As a testament to how good of a coach our teacher was: In 1964, the Taiwan government assembled a “team” to demonstrate Gwo-Shu at the Tokyo Olympics. Master Wang was one of the Coaches for this team. Four of his students (myself included) were members of this team.

    In the mid-1980s, (after political relationships had been established between the US and mainland China,) I (as an American citizen) went to Sky Mountain in Xinjiang Province. I did so, because I wanted to find Red Cloud’s Temple, and to pay respects to that place which, I had been told, was the of origin of our system. I was devastated when I found no evidence at Sky Mountain to corroborate any part of my teacher’s story.

    Upon returning from this trip, I questioned my teacher. He suggested I had not looked on the “correct side of the lake”, that I had not found the “historical footprints left in the ground by Red Cloud”, etc. I made several trips back to Sky Mountain. I enlisted the aid of the Xinjiang Wu-Shu Association get to the bottom of my confusion.

    Their conclusion, after doing research, was that there was no Temple on Sky Mountain... either in recorded papers, or in the lore of the local people. In support of this statement about the oral history of the area, they presented several very old local shepherds who testified they had been born in the area of Sky Mountain, and that their families had tended flocks on Sky Mountain, (as well as on neighboring mountains,) for generations. They had neither heard of any such Temple through family stories, nor had they seen any such Temple with their own eyes.

    I, once again, spoke with my teacher. I told him what I had learned, and his response was that we would not speak about this again. I was left to conclude that my teacher had originated the story of Red Cloud for his own reasons and to suit his own purpose.

    Not liking to think badly of someone I had so respected, I convinced myself that, if my teacher wanted to say that a legend (which he had used to teach us Martial Arts virtue) was suddenly “historical” and not “apocryphal,” I would let it pass. As his disciple, it would have been disrespectful for me to challenge him... so I kept quiet.

    The naming of our system as “Tien Shan Pai” in the US, was my doing. It happened in 1971…years before my teacher ever used “Tien Shan Pai” to refer to what he was teaching. I named it “Tien Shan Pai.”

    When I opened my first Lin Kung Fu school in the US, (in 1971,) I told my instructors to refer to the curriculum we were teaching as “Tien Shan Pai.” I did so for several reasons: 1) We were constantly asked by our students what “system” we were teaching. 2) I knew we were only teaching Master Wang’s curriculum. I knew no other style to teach, (since Master Wang had been my only Martial Art teacher.) and 3) As one of Master Wang’s disciples, I understood that he intended for his curriculum to be passed on to future generations.

    Therefore, I felt all right referring to my teacher’s curriculum as Tien Shan Pai. I had no problem with acknowledging Tien Shan Pai as our “system,” because it, in fact, had become one…complete with disciples, all trained by Wang, Jyue Jen!

    Let me be clear: Although I was the one to introduce Master Wang’s curriculum to the US, to name it “Tien Shan Pai”, and to popularize “Tien Shan Pai” in the US as a system, I have never claimed either it, or the name “Tien Shan Pai” for myself. I have always credited it back to my teacher, Wang Jyue Jen.

    In 1976, my publishers suggested that I title my first book TIEN SHAN PAI KUNG FU to distinguish it from other Kung Fu books on the market at that time. This was when the name “Tien Shan Pai” gained wide recognition. By the time my next book, (T’IEN SHAN P’AI CHIN-NA: THE GRAPPLING ART OF SELF DEFENSE VOLUME I) was published (in 1981,) Master Wang, himself, had chosen to use the name “Tien Shan Pai” when talking about what he was teaching.

    By the late 1970’s, my non-American Lin Kung Fu instructors… Tony Lin (my brother), C.C. Liu, and Chien-Liang Huang… (all of whom I had sponsored to come to the US to help me in my school,) had moved on. They were operating their own individual and unaffiliated studios under the umbrella system name of “Tien Shan Pai.” I raised no objection. This was seen as good for us all, and good for our teacher, as well.

    In 1981, while my teacher was visiting the US, Tony Lin sponsored an exhibition of “Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu” in Baltimore, MD. Participating in that exhibition were Tony Lin, C.C. Liu, and Chien-Liang Huang, along with their students, and Master Wang, himself. During this exhibition, carved commemorative swords were given to Tony, Liu, and Huang by Master Wang. I understand that each sword acknowledged, by name, its recipient as a student/disciple of Master Wang.

    As I was out of the country on business at the time, I did not participate in the Baltimore exhibition. I did not receive a commemorative sword.

    I understand, also, at this same time, commemorative swords were distributed to students of Chien-Liang Huang, (who had paid for these swords, themselves.) The carving on these swords identified the student-recipients as the sixty fifth generation of “Tien Shan Pai.”

    In 1999, while in Taiwan, and visiting a senior classmate, (Wu Ming Jer,) I learned something I had never known before. (Wu Ming Jer is also a disciple of Wang Jyue Jen. He is older than I, and renowned for his fighting ability.)

    Wu Ming Jer showed me his personal scrapbook, which included newspaper articles from 1957. When he showed me these articles, he told how, when he needed to fill out his application for the 1957 Taiwan-Hong Kong-Macau Tournament, there was a space that asked what “system” he was trained in. Wu Ming Jer did not have an answer. He asked our teacher what to fill in, and Master Wang told him to use the words “Tien Shan Pai.”

    Wu Ming Jer went on to win this prestigious fighting competition, and the event was reported in the Taiwan newspapers. To anyone’s knowledge, this is the first time that “Tien Shan Pai” was publicly linked to that curriculum which our teacher taught.

    Curiously, even after Wu’s stunning achievement… the result of which was that Master Wang’s own reputation as a Gwo-Shu coach was enhanced, and his Lei Sheng Wu Yuan school prospered even more… my teacher never mentioned the words “T’ien Shan P’ai” to his students. He didn’t use “T’ien Shan P’ai” in any publicity about, or in any programs printed by his school for school-sponsored exhibitions or demonstrations… at least through 1974. I have a Lei Sheng Wu Yuan exhibition program in my possession from that year, (written both in Chinese and in English,) which substantiates this.

    Marketing and legend-building strategies to the contrary, I can clearly state that my teacher’s curriculum, (now known as the system of “Tien Shan Pai,”) originated with Master Wang himself. My teacher should be credited as the founder of this relatively “new” system. His disciples are the ones correctly identified as the first generation in the lineage of this system. The disciples of the First Generation Disciples are the ones to make up Tien Shan Pai’s subsequent generations.

    In conclusion, I would like to say how I stand united in sentiment with my fellow classmates in Taiwan, (who are also disciples of Wang, Jyue Jen.) We recognize that any disciple of our teacher is a disciple in our system, (now known as “Tien Shan Pai.”.) We affirm that our teacher had many disciples, all of whom are equally vested in the lineage of our system, and that the future of “Tien Shan Pai,” is the responsibility of us all.
  10. RondyR is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harford County, Maryland
    Posts
    45

    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 12:07am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Catfishin'!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've studied a bit under 65th generation Sifu Ryan Vivaliss (whose name I am sure I butchered; even his wife has a difficult time remembering how to spell it :P) at Freedom Martial Arts by Bel Air, Maryland. We talked at length about this (Sifu Ryan studies under Sifu Chien-Liang Huang. Bascially, what I told Sifu Ryan is this: the Chinese people are huge imaginations. I'm not saying that to be rude to the Chinese people at all; and I prove my belief by their most popular book "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". Read the description of Liu Bei - he sounds like a deformed monster. But that was their writing style, truth with a bit of imagination. Master Wang probably just said "Hey, I'll be the Sixty Third generation of Tien Shan Pai because it sounds fantastic!". What's the big deal about that, honestly? So maybe it just threw a number in front of it; search YouTube for the video of the man when he was in Baltimore doing a demostration and marvel at him and remind yourself that the guy was in his 70's at the time. Most 70 year olds nowadays drive twenty miles before they remember to turn the blinker off. Tien Shan Pai, no matter what, is a fun system and I very much recommend Freedom Martial Arts to anyone who is interested.
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