Tien Shan Pai possible Bullshido - Long

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 1:50pm

I started training in "kung fu" when I was 17. Up to that point, I was the little sickly asthma kid that had a permanent note to get out of gym class. I tried cardio, weight lifting, and other exercises but nothing helped. I tried wrestling but quit in 7th grade because the chemicals used to clean the mats could make me have an attack and because there was only two people in the entire conference at my weight (72lbs). But when I started training in kung fu, I got stronger and healthier and eventually became the pillar of wholesome sexiness that I am today.

My shifu was Korean. His teacher's teacher left China either right before the Cultural revolution or at the beginning of it. He was from north eastern China and settled in Korea, where he started training students. My shifu was big on training and little on talk, plus there were many translation problems, so when I asked what style I was learning, he simply said "northern chinese boxing". That was fine for me because it was a great style and was very intense. That was 1994.

In 2001, I once again became curious about the style that I started with so I began digging. I found an old shirt with the symbols of the style on it. I emailed Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming and he identified it as Tien Shan Pai or "heavenly mountain style". Cool. I possibly had a name. But my research came to an abrupt end when I started acupuncture school because I needed to focus on studying. I also quit training altogether and focused on weight lifting because it was easier and I get good results from it (the previously mentioned sexiness).

A few months ago my old shifu contacted me again. So I thought about training again, especially once my son was born (the whole training my son thing kinda seemed cool). So I asked my shifu about the style to confirm if it was Tien Shan Pai, and he told me not to worry and just train. He was always found of saying that Americans were too busy worrying about insignificant details instead of sweating. Yeah, I think I helped him formulate that idea.

So what was I to do? Google. My shifu said it was an obscure style but I was able to find a little bit of information. So as I began to research I stumbled across a huge debate and possible bullshido. My first instinct was to determine if this was the style I learned. If not, then why bother? One of the people involved was doing a good job of rooting out the possible bullshido and I really don't have the extra time to **** off. But I ordered one of the only books on the style and determined yesterday that this was the style I learned (with some significant differences - other topic entirely). So now I am getting involved.

It started with an article from Inside Kung Fu in May 2004. (http://www.tienshanpai.org/tienshanp...eature_3.shtml). In the article, Grandmaster Huang gives detail over the history of the style as well as how he is the 64th generation heir. This article triggers a rebutal from Sean Miller, who responds to each point in the original article, including some valid points about the whole lineage (watch out _ing _hun) BS. This in turn yields another rebuttal. They are linked here: http://www.tienshanpai.org/tienshanp...response.shtml.

Then this discussion turned up as a thread at rotten tomatoes: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/s...d.php?t=378259

To summarize. Mr. Huang claimed among other things that he is the 64th generation master of Tien Shan Pai. Sean Miller replied by saying that this is nearly impossible because the Shaolin Temple is only at 34 generations. In addition, Mr. Huang is unable to document any of the lineage other than his immediate predecessors.

The point? None really, other than all of you research oriented people could help by bringing pressure to Mr. Huang to back up his claim. I do have some information that does contradict some of what Sean Miller has said since he points out that the style was unheard of in China, but my teacher's teacher's teacher (that's fun) was already mastered at that time in NE China. But that is really insignificant compared to the rest of the claims.

**xingyifa** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 2:22pm

this might be better dealt with over on the martial arts history project board...

Other than that, a lot of the counterpoints seemed convincing. I smell bullshido but then again, there are other CMA's that have highly debated histories that also produce fighters...

**Mr. Mantis** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 2:26pm

Tien Shan Pai has some good things in it.

I don't know about lineage wars though.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 2:53pm

Originally Posted by xingyifa

this might be better dealt with over on the martial arts history project board...

Good point. Moderator-Fu, anyone?

Originally Posted by xingyifa

Other than that, a lot of the counterpoints seemed convincing. I smell bullshido but then again, there are other CMA's that have highly debated histories that also produce fighters...

That is similar to what my shifu would say. Quit worrying about the BS and train. But since I am lazy, I would rather sit at this computer and help root out BS then sweat.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 2:54pm

Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis

Tien Shan Pai has some good things in it.

I don't know about lineage wars though.

I would like to hear about your experience with it, if you have time. At the end of the rotten tomatoes thread, I posted my response to the Tien Shan Pai book that I ordered. If you have first or second-hand knowledge of the "style", it would be nice to hear.

**Mr. Mantis** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 5:10pm

I have done a number of the stretching chi cung type exercises. These are very good IMO. The only other experience comes out of a very little bit of jian sword practice, which I did not particularly care for. Tien Shan Pai is flowery and a bit fancy for my tastes.

But then again, I have very little exposure to it.

**brianlkennedy** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 5:58pm

I will need to check some Chinese language sources later today but..if I remember right the confirmable history of Tien Shen Pai basically goes back to a couple of KMT guys here in Taiwan circa 1970 or so. As is the norm, they decided to get together, form a "school", give it a name, get it registered with the ROC government (to start getting some government stipends) and then---post date their history by about a thousand years.

This was a very common practice among Taiwanese martial arts organizations. I will try and look into the specifics a bit later.

take care,
Brian

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 7:10pm

Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis

I have done a number of the stretching chi cung type exercises. These are very good IMO. The only other experience comes out of a very little bit of jian sword practice, which I did not particularly care for. Tien Shan Pai is flowery and a bit fancy for my tastes.

But then again, I have very little exposure to it.

Flowery is not a word that would come to mind about what I trained in, not that I would object to that since I am sure I could get chicks that way.

Seriously though, it seems like there is quite a bit of divergence within this style. The book that I purchased by Willy Lin [Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu] has similarities to the style that I learned but there were many differences. As I remarked on the rotten tomatoes thread, the style presented in his book seems like a modern wushu version of what I learned.

What Brian Kennedy posted does seem to make sense, although as I mentioned my teacher's blah blah blah was quite good by the time he left China, which if training in a style to reach that point takes 10-15 years (I have no clue), then he must have started training (at the latest) in the early 1950s. So when the group got together in Taiwan in the early 70s, my teacher's blah blah blah would have been teaching in Korea for over 5 years.

My shifu did have a video from Korea that was made by one of his "kung fu brothers" and the training looked intense. But at no time did I see any taiji, weapons, or wrestling, which was mentioned in Willy Lin's book as a part of Tien Shan Pai. So it is possible that there are two similar styles called the same thing, my shifu's translation was way off and what I trained in was something else, I am making all of this up to create drama and hopefully get some rep, or the ecstasy that I did in the late 90s is causing some sort of psychological dysfunction.

**tienshanwarrior** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 9:49pm

Quickfeet, you are rigth as for the year at which TSP might have been brought to Taiwan, remember, that Master Wang Jine Jen moved to Taiwan by 1948-49 and open a school in 1950. Now, as I have stated in Rotten Tomatoes, the story of TSO origins and the mention of the 64th generation was started by Master Wang, and his disciples carried it on. The book on TSP by master Willy Lin mention the legend of Red Cloud and in the China Na books he mention the 64 generation disciples of the p'ai. I'd like to know about Brian's references.

Its is too bad your sifu doesnt want to share information, my teacher was somewhat similar, he was very reserved about his master and I never heard a word about it from him. We did, however knew that we were training TSP, just the name was shoerten as Tao Li, the full name of it was Tien Shan Pai Li Liang Tao.

It will be interesting to see the forms that you learnt, maybe you could post a video in this site to compare, what do you think?

Cheers

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 7/09/2005 10:24pm

Originally Posted by tienshanwarrior

Quickfeet, you are rigth as for the year at which TSP might have been brought to Taiwan, remember, that Master Wang Jine Jen moved to Taiwan by 1948-49 and open a school in 1950. Now, as I have stated in Rotten Tomatoes, the story of TSO origins and the mention of the 64th generation was started by Master Wang, and his disciples carried it on. The book on TSP by master Willy Lin mention the legend of Red Cloud and in the China Na books he mention the 64 generation disciples of the p'ai. I'd like to know about Brian's references.

Its is too bad your sifu doesnt want to share information, my teacher was somewhat similar, he was very reserved about his master and I never heard a word about it from him. We did, however knew that we were training TSP, just the name was shoerten as Tao Li, the full name of it was Tien Shan Pai Li Liang Tao.

It will be interesting to see the forms that you learnt, maybe you could post a video in this site to compare, what do you think?

Cheers

Thanks for the info. Is there any literature or books published by the original folks like Wang Jine Jen that pre-date the Wang claims? That would be great.

I did email my shifu and I spoke with my "older kung fu brother" today on the phone and he reiterated mostly what I already knew. He did mention that our teacher might not know his teacher's teacher's name because it is possible that he moved to Korea illegally. But until I hear back from our teacher, that is more conjecture.

As for posting a video, that is a good one. I am just starting back up, practicing alone with very little spare time. I am scheduled to train 3 mornings a week at 6AM, but for some reason it tends to rain 2 out of the 3 days. Damn Seattle. Plus I weigh about 75 more pounds of rock hardness then when I used to train Tien Shan Pai. Okay, 60 pounds of rock hardness with 15 pounds of "other".

But I guess I should quit making excuses and train. The idea of sharing video with commentary is actually a good idea so we can see what other people that are supposed to train in Tien Shan Pai do. Then we should organize a TMA mega-throwdown to coincide with the regular one, all fight each other, and then...uh...drink beer.