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  1. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorOfLuv
    I agree with Bruce Lee's JKD philosophy but at the same time, I disagree with it. Cross-training is good--it seems to be the rage these days and rightly so--but that does not mean a technique should be discarded because it did not work effectively the first time for an individual. (Besides, where's the discipline and challenge in avoiding a difficult technique and sticking to the relatively simpler ones?). I believe mastering a technique you had problems with ALLOWS you to better understand your body than to simply avoid it.
    It depends upon your personal goals for studying MA in the first place. Mastering a technique that is inherently difficult for you can be beneficial on many levels. However, the fact is that due to different body types, height, weight, strength, speed, blance, etc.) there are always some techniques that are better suited for some individuals than others. If your goal is competition, it's to your advantage to weed those out.

    I agree with you 100%, that the weeding should not take place until you have spent years of dedicated training and have a minimum level of competence in every technique.
  2. WarriorOfLuv is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:39am


     Style: Russian boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    It depends upon your personal goals for studying MA in the first place. Mastering a technique that is inherently difficult for you can be beneficial on many levels. However, the fact is that due to different body types, height, weight, strength, speed, blance, etc.) there are always some techniques that are better suited for some individuals than others. If your goal is competition, it's to your advantage to weed those out.

    I agree with you 100%, that the weeding should not take place until you have spent years of dedicated training and have a minimum level of competence in every technique.
    Definitely. I am also of the opinion that competitors ought to train 'traditionally' (i.e., working on difficult techniques) and competitively (i.e., work with what's best for you) .

    Basically, I think getting all gung-ho about cross-training and thinking that modern fighting methods (taking what's best from what you learn and discarding what's 'ineffective') is superior to the traditional (mastering all forms and techniques in a system's curriculum) is detrimental to that individual.
  3. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:41am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    There are 2 schools of thought:

    1) Train in ONE system and get very good at it and THEN branch out
    2) Mix everything from the start

    Both have their pros and cons.

    Based purely on personal experience, I'd generally recommend method 1 for those new to martial arts. Getting a few years of a single style under your belt will give you some fundamentals -- but more importantly, teach you how to learn.


    -daGorilla
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorOfLuv
    Definitely. I am also of the opinion that competitors ought to train 'traditionally' (i.e., working on difficult techniques) and competitively (i.e., work with what's best for you) .

    Basically, I think getting all gung-ho about cross-training and thinking that modern fighting methods (taking what's best from what you learn and discarding what's 'ineffective') is superior to the traditional (mastering all forms and techniques in a system's curriculum) is detrimental to that individual.

    Actually, traditionally, MA teachers would "tailor" the system to the individual, not the other way around as is done in many so-called TMA dojo's.

    The instructor would choose the most dedicated to learn the WHOLE system, but to the majority, he would teach what was best for them.

    This was very common and consisten in ALL MA, eastern and western.
  5. CMack11 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:47am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daGorilla
    Based purely on personal experience, I'd generally recommend method 1 for those new to martial arts. Getting a few years of a single style under your belt will give you some fundamentals -- but more importantly, teach you how to learn.
    That is probably true, but in a way I don't understand this (could be because I don't have a lot of MA experience).

    For example, my primary art deals nothing with groundwor. If I go cross train at a place and work on nothing but groundwork, I just don't see how this can be detrimental. I'm still putting in as much time in my primary art, and just supplementing that w/ a little groundwork. I don't see where there's any crossover.
  6. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 9:55am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsufubu
    Yes, cross training is good. Duh.

    The problem I have with the ''learn one art and move onto the next'' is that unless you're the soke/grandmaster/whatever, you HAVEN'T learnt that art. Also, how can you stay sharp and have good grappling skills if you haven't trained in judo for ten years because you figure you'd learnt it all and moved on? It's like spending a year at the gym and giving it up because you're strong enough already. Just doesn't work.

    I do see the guy's point, but as long as you are committed to getting good at both, then of course crosstraining is good.

    A few thoughts:

    Who says you need to be a grandmaster to be an effective fighter? Who says a grandmaster knows it all? Grandmasters are not deities. They are human like everyone else, and the learning process is endless -- whether you're a noob or a grandmaster. Many (if not most) Grandmasters studied many arts in their past -- it's all just part of that endless learning process. Even the grandmaster's haven't "learned" their arts -- they continue to examine and refine them in subtle ways.

    Ten years of any art is enough to give you a good foundation in an art -- certainly enough to move on and train in another art. Some skills -- depending on how well they are learned/trained -- stick with you for life. Viewed more pragmatically, someone with ten years of judo behind them can still probably throw my ass to the ground -- even if they haven't practiced it for a long time. If I stopped trainig karate, my ability to punch will still be with me for a long time -- sure, it will lose some effectiveness -- but I'll still able to punch effectively, if not as fast and as strong (and with as good a timing) as when I was actively training it.

    Anyway-- If someone does train in an art for ten years and moves on, I'd still recommend training in their original art -- they could probably cut back to once or twice a week and lend more time to the new art...

    After a few years, when the new art begins to "take hold", the practioner can begin to blend his arts and switch between them effectively. While the multi-style practitioner might learn and progress more slowly at first, once his new training becomes more natural to him/her, both arts ultimately become stronger -- and the student becomes stronger than his single-style counterparts.

    -daGorilla
  7. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 10:00am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    2 styles at the same time, dude.
  8. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 10:01am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CMack11
    That is probably true, but in a way I don't understand this (could be because I don't have a lot of MA experience).

    For example, my primary art deals nothing with groundwor. If I go cross train at a place and work on nothing but groundwork, I just don't see how this can be detrimental. I'm still putting in as much time in my primary art, and just supplementing that w/ a little groundwork. I don't see where there's any crossover.
    It seems it would depend upon how much time you have and your energy levels. I don't understand why training in more than one art would effect your fundamentals. For most of my life I trained in both boxing and judo simultaneously (not to mention varsity sports), and for 3 years I also wrestled at the same time I did the others. I never had trouble learning the fundamentals of more than one activity at a time. However, back then I was young and had an almost unlimited amount of time to train. I think that makes all the difference in the world. I don't think it's the matter of different styles, but the time deficit involved in studying different styles. But, for some people, that's not a factor.

    The most important thing is the willingness to devote a significant amount of time (in terms of years) and energy (in terms of intensity) to the style.
  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 10:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9


    2 styles at the same time, dude.

    I like your new look, better than the old, well...anything was better than the old look.
  10. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2005 10:55am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9


    2 styles at the same time, dude.
    That's right buddy. Work in the front, party in the back.
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