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  1. RobG is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 3:51am


     Style: casual

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although not of the 'booj' anymore...I still have a few friends well known in the lineage....I date back to the early 80's of all this in america.
    My taijutsu is rusty...but still I would like to offer a consideration, based on western sword arts.
    The ninja-to (sword) was an inferior metal - and unlike the 3 foot long fine steel edge of the samurai (and not all samurai had such fine blades - but the shape was the same generally) - the blad was longer and curved...the ninja-to, shorter and straight. Maybe by what - about 12 inches or so? More or less?

    In western sword combat - there was a huge assortment of blades used in different cultures and at different times in history. As travel became easier between established countries...techniques were exchanged...mostly at the cost of the original students life, but the witnesses learned. And the prevailing design of a sword changed (as did armour and battlefield)....eventually the broad sword (hacking and cutting crushing strikes) were replaced by a more curved form of blade. In some countries the form stayed straight but became lighter and shorter. In others, it became more curved- many countries where the use of cavalry reflect a curved blade preference - a saracyn (?) sword, a shashka from the cossacks, the cutlass - (even the cavalry sword of the civil war was curved), many others that used horses used curved blades - for you did not want to stick a guy and get caught up in his body as the horse was passing by. Could break your arm or wrist and lose the blade as well.

    In later years, after the middle ages - the blades of europe became more thin and light. They widened and the hilt...and one could still cut or stab -- for both were useful against light armour...the heavy plate discarded due to the longbow. Mobility was the survival factor.

    And as the age of the western sword drew to an end - the very straight and 4 sided sword became favored - and stabbing became the overwhelming move. It was - well - structurally faster and easier to use by a very mobile and illusive opponent.

    Now, consider the difference between the swords and armaments of the samurai/soldier and the 'ninja' (which is a relatively recent term, I believe).

    The samurai had wodden plate armour, the ninja - maybe chain mail, usually none. And since samurai pretty much trained to face samurai - I feel they wound up moving in an odd form of 'agreement' - cutting and slashing was the most efficient use of a long sword (though some stabbing was used - it was mostly - CUT the opponent down mindset). The 'ninja' had a sword that was not reliable in that way - and thier method was more based on mobility (leaving deception and supplementary weapons aside for a moment).
    They relied more on a 'pushing' cut - identical to a stab motion. While the samurai usually used a drawing back cutting motion.

    Its very different things.

    In oreder to crash through and cut an armoured opponent - the overall movement was big. Think of the classic 'pear splitter' - a move that could cut a guy from crown to belly...big move, even with a 3 ft long razor blade.

    'Ninja' used more a pushing cut/stabbing motion...which allowed for more of a structuraly fast attack.

    They more stabbed an opponent than cut his arm off...the opposite of the samurai methods.

    Strucurally faster....more mobile.
    That was the success they had.

    If looked into in comparison to the western sword methods evolution....I personally see an interesting paralell conclusion of efficiency, between the two.

    Of course...I could be very wrong...it would not be the first time...but I figured I would just throw it out for consideration here.
  2. king of seals is offline

    HONEY BADGER!

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 4:22am


     Style: Pankration

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    with the speed of a giant dragon
    Giant creatures are extremely heavy and slow.

    STFU.
  3. RobG is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 4:48am


     Style: casual

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, King! Where did you get the pic of my sister?
    LOL. MAybe I shouldnt ask a guy so talented in hunting pix down. "I did NOT have sex with that woman'...really I didnt. Bill and I agree on that - so if ya find and post that pic - I will deny it like a Clinton.
  4. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
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    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 4:48am

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     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    Thats where the ninjutsu part comes in. Ninja are not and will not ever be as good as samurai in a sword battle. Ninjutsu is about surviving, which is where the dirty tricks came into play.
    Isn't ninjitsu about espionage or assassination or something? In fact, why are you trying to argue in favor of a fighting ninja if all they're going to do is run away? Why are you even trying to attribute any action to every ninja ever?

    When did I say anything about a personal duel? The point I made was that strategy wins battles.
    Strategists talented enough to overcome M-16s with longbows are pretty rare.

    Ah, so which one is it? A duel, or defending himself?
    -10 points for relating unrelated statements.

    This is why ninjutsu techniques are rarely, if ever fair, and often rely on the advantage of superior numbers or superior familiarity with the terrain.
    Don't you know anything? Ninja are the ones overcoming superior numbers with poison shuriken and blinding powder. And lasers! Zap!

    Instead of standing your ground and dueling that samurai chasing you, you'd just as easily rather throw some caltrops down in the road, hide in the bushes, and toss some explosives at him... if you were found out. Most ninjutsu techniques focus on you NOT being seen by the people you are spying on, and getting out of the territory without having to resort to combat.
    The problem I have with tales of both ninja and samurai is that both of them probably **** their pants and run away.

    For instance, you might fake high with a punch only to turn it into a stomp to the outside of someone's kneecap
    I'm trying to picture how you can get an overhead punch into a stomp without the victim realizing that you've raised your leg, but it's not working for me.

    The ninja-to (sword) was an inferior metal - and unlike the 3 foot long fine steel edge of the samurai (and not all samurai had such fine blades - but the shape was the same generally) - the blad was longer and curved...the ninja-to, shorter and straight. Maybe by what - about 12 inches or so? More or less?
    Did I mention that ninja swords didn't exist? I think I forgot to.

    the heavy plate discarded due to the longbow.
    Longbows weren't actually able to pierce plate armor.

    The samurai had wodden plate armour, the ninja - maybe chain mail, usually none.
    The Japanese never used wooden armor. I've seen coifs with just chainmail knitted to them, but no pure chainmail armor.

    They more stabbed an opponent than cut his arm off...the opposite of the samurai methods.
    I see this a lot, which is strange because most cuts seem to be geared towards cutting through the body. Hell, even in a good historical drama most of the characters die from cuts to the midsection.
  5. king of seals is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 5:01am


     Style: Pankration

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    Hey, King! Where did you get the pic of my sister?
    LOL. MAybe I shouldnt ask a guy so talented in hunting pix down. "I did NOT have sex with that woman'...really I didnt. Bill and I agree on that - so if ya find and post that pic - I will deny it like a Clinton.
    Are you talking about my avatar?

    If not, please provide a link...

    EDIT: If a ninja-to was as good as a katana, ninjas wouldn't need to use sneaky tactics to overcome their opponents. Worse metal, shorter blade.
    Last edited by king of seals; 6/27/2005 5:13am at .
  6. xingyifa is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 9:33am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A casual aquaintance of mine recently asked me what I thought of ninjutsu and if I thought she should take it. I told her that the deadly art of ninjaing has actually produced a few very effective fighters over the years but that it also seemed to attract the weirdos. This thread has confirmed my suspicions :razz:
  7. RobG is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 11:35am


     Style: casual

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK - my mistake....more the cross bow than the long.
    Actually the pike did a good job of convincing the knight to discard his can.

    The 'ninja' sword was hardly a sword at all.....more a length of barely sharp but pointed metal, and suposedly an occasional busted sam/sword recovered after a battle.

    Ans sections of chainmail sewn to cloth garment was much more used than full chain mail - I think there is only one chain mail tunic around in a museum in Japan claiming to hold ninja artifacts - and its history is dubious at best. Hell, ya cant make a decent sword but could produce numerous chain mail tunics? Doubtful.

    And all in all, the hand held spear did in more samurai/ninja back then than all the fancy swordwork ninja or samurai were able to come up with.

    Poke and run!

    AND its very true that out of the things I have studied over life - the ninja school of m/arts does have a much higher per capita of 'weirdos' than perhaps any other singular m/art catagory. At least in the early levels - when they find out they are not going to be able to finger knit and turn into a crow...or not be taught how to make explosive shuriken from cow dung...they leave. What do you expect from an art that the general public only knows from m/art movies?

    Ashida Kim could only be the jerk he is by claiming ninja status.
    Overall, its still a valid martial study...for those who like the particular thing.
    All depends on where you get it from.

    All that super assassin crap is left behind in a legit school.
    And the couple of high ranked proponents I know - hardly see ninjitsu in such a light at all.
    Dont teach it that way either.
  8. GranoblasticMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 12:47pm


     Style: BJJ, WMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    eventually the broad sword (hacking and cutting crushing strikes) were replaced by a more curved form of blade.
    Yes... MUCH after the "golden age" of armored combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    In some countries the form stayed straight but became lighter and shorter. In others, it became more curved- many countries where the use of cavalry reflect a curved blade preference - a saracyn (?) sword, a shashka from the cossacks, the cutlass - (even the cavalry sword of the civil war was curved), many others that used horses used curved blades - for you did not want to stick a guy and get caught up in his body as the horse was passing by. Could break your arm or wrist and lose the blade as well.
    I fail to see how "curved = better" here. It is a different circumstance. How many cossacks or civil war soldiers do you see wearing ANY kind of armor, let alone chain or plate armor?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    In later years, after the middle ages - the blades of europe became more thin and light. They widened and the hilt...and one could still cut or stab -- for both were useful against light armour...the heavy plate discarded due to the longbow. Mobility was the survival factor.
    Again, thank you for speaking out of your ass.

    The profile of the sword became much thinner mostly due to techniques against armor. "Halfswording" is a perfect example. How do you attack a man in plate armor with a sword? You grab the sword half-way up the blade and stab. Think of bayonet techniques, it's along the same lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    And as the age of the western sword drew to an end - the very straight and 4 sided sword became favored - and stabbing became the overwhelming move. It was - well - structurally faster and easier to use by a very mobile and illusive opponent.
    Wrong again. People didn't just suddenly "get faster." (And what the hell is "four sided sword"?)

    FIRST LESSON IN THE HISTORY OF WEAPONS:
    People make weapons to harm other people, then they make armor to defend against those weapons, then they make weapons to penetrate that armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobG
    In oreder to crash through and cut an armoured opponent - the overall movement was big. Think of the classic 'pear splitter' - a move that could cut a guy from crown to belly...big move, even with a 3 ft long razor blade.
    NEVER, in the history of weapons, has it been conventional to "CUT THROUGH ARMOR." EVER!

    [QUOTE=RobG]'Ninja' used more a pushing cut/stabbing motion...which allowed for more of a structuraly fast attack.[QUOTE]

    Get yourself a waster and let's go at it. I'll prove to you the fastest strike is a false-edge strike.

    [QUOTE=RobG]If looked into in comparison to the western sword methods evolution....I personally see an interesting paralell conclusion of efficiency, between the two.[QUOTE]

    Because your evolution is based on Dungeons and Dragons logic.
  9. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 1:37pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dunno about you but I never leave the house without a good 80 lbs of plate armor.

    As for ninjas, well all you ever need to know is on www.REALULTIMATEPOWER.net
    enjoy.
  10. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 2:29pm

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the love of God, not this **** again.

    Many ninja were also samurai, there is not a clear-cut distinction between the two. (e.g. Hattori Hanzo)
    Bujutsu and ninjutsu go hand in hand, they both evolved off of each other (bugei juhappen and ninja juhakkei).
    Ninja did not have their own special swords, they used katana and wakizashi.
    Ninjutsu is not all about espionage and assassination.
    Ninja did fight on the battlefield, hence that's why they have suits of shinobi armor in museums and ****.

    The idea of a ninja-to came from when Japan hadn't yet refined their sword-making processes and had straight-bladed swords. Once they learned how to make them curved, straight-bladed swords were obsolete. Since ninja were often dressed in everyday clothes, carrying a rather conspicuous sword used only by ninja would be a stupid idea. And considering that, once again, many ninja were also samurai, they'd have a katana or wakizashi with them already.

    And RobG was right, once crossbows started piercing armor is when the advent of fencing came around and once swords started getting lighter and the thrust and mobility become prime factors. And it goes without saying that fencing is how boxing came around. 'Nuff said.
    Last edited by VikingPower; 6/28/2005 8:42pm at .
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