Commotio Cordis.......Death touch

**Dirty Rooster** · Posted On: 1/04/2007 1:02pm

This is a good thread to revive.

I'd say if the chances of commie-cordie are 2 percent you'd have loads more people dying ...
unless there ARE loads more people dying of it and the stats are unreported or the deaths are mostly misdiagnosed.
Scary!

But let's say that even if the chances of death are way way lower than 2 percent,
and that the most likely victims are teenagers (I'm assuming)
then maybe just this phenomenon is the one thing that gave rise to the
stupid chest-death-touch practices.
This reasoning relies on self-deluded egotist ancient kung-fu masters whacking lots of teenage students in the chest on a regular basis. That'd do it.
How could they then NOT believe in the death-touch?

**sheltrk** · Posted On: 1/04/2007 1:40pm

Just to clarify... According to the numbers cited for the timing window in the original article, and assuming a nominal heart rate of 72 bpm, the chance of randomly occuring blow having the correct timing is just under 2%.

The blow would also have to hit the right spot, and have the appropriate force (both of which are mediated by other factors such as the location of the heart, and the thickness of the chest wall...).

Therefore, the overall probability of inducing commotio cordis with a single blow is much, much less than 2%, based on the information cited, with some reasonable assumptions.

**saturnjunkie** · Posted On: 1/04/2007 2:29pm

Originally Posted by Doctor X

The chance of hitting the cardiac cycle at the point is so ridiculous _ing _ung seems reasonable.

Of course I am drunk.

**** you.

--J.D.

Funny that you mention that. I was just thinking "gee, these guys should would rofl if they saw me post something about _ng _un chain punches increasing the chance of hitting that 'lucky dim-mak'"

In short: is _ng_un 'teh deadly' if you're rabbit punching someone in the heart in the hopes of hitting that rhythm? 1 in 56 if you use a previous poster's statistics ;)

Of course that's not a realistic measurement considering it takes x amount of time for you to throw said punch, y amount to retract said punch, z amount of chest compression, ax/ay coordinate for landing the punch.. but still... if you bitch-punch a guy in the chest 100 times right AROUND the same area, ZOMG _NG _UN WINS

**Doctor X** · Posted On: 1/04/2007 7:41pm

Post like woman, the more you drink the better it looks.

--J.D.

**aaaargh** · Posted On: 1/05/2007 7:49pm

Originally Posted by saturnjunkie

Funny that you mention that. I was just thinking "gee, these guys should would rofl if they saw me post something about _ng _un chain punches increasing the chance of hitting that 'lucky dim-mak'"

In short: is _ng_un 'teh deadly' if you're rabbit punching someone in the heart in the hopes of hitting that rhythm? 1 in 56 if you use a previous poster's statistics ;)

Of course that's not a realistic measurement considering it takes x amount of time for you to throw said punch, y amount to retract said punch, z amount of chest compression, ax/ay coordinate for landing the punch.. but still... if you bitch-punch a guy in the chest 100 times right AROUND the same area, ZOMG _NG _UN WINS

I would think in the course of training, the typical wing chun student would get chain punched, like, thousands of times in the chest over the course of a year. And clearly they're not dying off.

**Doctor X** · Posted On: 1/05/2007 9:59pm

Well, you have transmit a certain amount of energy to the heart for the "precordial thump" as it is known to be effective. Slappy paddy cake does not transmit much energy, even if it might knock-down someone cut from his high schools Full-Contact Poetry Team.

You cannot really blame _ing _ung for its failure to kill its students in this fashion. . . .

--J.D.

**kobudo** · Posted On: 1/05/2007 10:40pm

So a firm blow sets the heart a little wacky?

This is nothing I can't fix with my own two hands and maybe (probably) a little help from an AED. It's called CPR certification, and it doesn't take much to learn it.

And if it ever happens to me, hopefully someone in the room will also know CPR and not have their head up their posterior.

**Doctor X** · Posted On: 1/05/2007 11:04pm

Eh . . . what happens is that a strike transmits energy, and when I write "energy" I mean the nice and understood Newtonian Physics and not some LARPing Wheatgerm eating ridiculousness.

A certain amount of energy is necessary to depolarize a significant portion of the heart muscle. Why is this important? In certain conditions--ventricular fibrillation--this may allow the muscle to restart its natural synchronized cycle of depolarization rather than the chaotic random depolarizations that result in no effective contractions--as seen in V-Fib.

Conversely, in a critical period of the heart cycle, the heart is "vulnerable" for a strike to cause as "desynchronization" of the depolarizations--for want of a better term.

The classic "pre-cordial thump"--which you see on television--is only indicated for, frankly, an arrest secondary to V-Fib. It can work, but cardioversion--which delivers a set amount of energy to the heart muscle--works better. Oddly enough, if you read guides for CPR and the like they will always--in the US--state you should not attempt a precordial thump if you do not have a cardioverter handy.

Why would you perform the "thump" if you had a cardioverter? Typical legal winging!

Interestingly, it is controversial whether or not CPR--the compressions--actually saves/improves outcomes in people with cardiac arrest. What does seem to help is the better awareness to get people to a hospital.

Anyways, this whole concept is an example of "cherry picking" data. A believer in Woo wants validation for belief. So he "cherry picks" data. This is why I often contend the easiest way to debunk pseudoscience is to force to Woo to define whatever "it"--like "Qi" or "Quality Country Western Music"--is.

The Woo wants t3h d34dly Dim Mak. So he hears about kids getting snuffed by a baseball blow to the chest.

"Oh! That MUST be my t3h d34dly!!"

If someone were to then post that a person died from a strike dislodging a plaque in his only functional vertebral artery then THAT will be incorporated into t3h d34dly.

Woo will then read some classical diagnostic manuals that will tell you how to recognize parts of the cardiac cycle from observing jugular "pulses"--yes, there is a "pulse" but it comes from the blood flow. Good luck seeing it on a healthy person who has any sort of neck development!

So NOW t3h Masta observes the cardiac cycle and strikes during the critical period!!! [!--Ed.]

While this is going on, apparently, the victim is just standing there?

Maybe he is grabbing your wrist . . . hey! You might feel the pulse then and can time the millisecond t3h d34dly!!!

Clearly we must stop what we are doing to learn this t3h d34dly art!!

Now . . . if the victim is wearing a coat if may be a problem . . . try to get your opponent to strip. Now if she is a "she" you could try for an erogenous zone instead . . .

And people waste time learning to do armbars and punching!!!

--J.D.

**kobudo** · Posted On: 1/06/2007 12:40pm

Originally Posted by Doctor X

Now . . . if the victim is wearing a coat if may be a problem . . . try to get your opponent to strip. Now if she is a "she" you could try for an erogenous zone instead . . .

And people waste time learning to do armbars and punching!!!

So what you're saying is, that the ancient secrets of __ng __un actually revolve around copping feels off of female "assailants?" Now the art makes perfect sense!

Female "assailant": Hey, did you just touch my rear end?

Master: No, I certainly did not.

Female "assailant": Well, I just felt something, and you're the only one standing there!

Master: Oh well, must have been some chi energy or something. It usually takes years of training to develop that kind of awareness. You must have a special gift. Want to come back to my place and talk about it?

I think you may be onto something there, Dr. X....

**aaaargh** · Posted On: 1/06/2007 4:31pm

Originally Posted by Doctor X

Woo will then read some classical diagnostic manuals that will tell you how to recognize parts of the cardiac cycle from observing jugular "pulses"--yes, there is a "pulse" but it comes from the blood flow. Good luck seeing it on a healthy person who has any sort of neck development!

Yeah, three problems with the JVP (jugular venous pulse) idea:

A) You can't see JVP on a standing (healthy) person. JVP is observed with the patient lying back at 45 degrees. Stand up the patient, and (assuming healthy person) the venous pulse drops out of sight down into the chest. (You might still see the carotid artery pulse.)

B) Most doctors have a hard time even identifying the jugular pulse, let alone recognizing indicators of the cardiac cycle (a-waves, v-waves and x-and-y descents- friggin impossible.) And that's with all the time in the world, at the bedside with bright lights. It's a tough skill.

C) And anyway, that would only give you a very rough idea of when the T-wave takes place.