Teh DEADLY Yoshinkan/pre war aikido

[Matsufubu]

To matsufubu: I suggest you stop observing and do a class with a reputable and decidedly good aikidoka. Ellis Amdur has touched on a new phenomenon that is not spoken of in many aikido dojos and it is about 'resistant' ukemi. Basically, instead of the uke being totally 'compliant', he will resist if he 'feels' that the technique is not properly applied and 'cues' the nage to apply another technique from that position. It looks totally compliant, but it ain't. A lot of people make fun of Steven Seagal here but just because he got choked out by Gene Lebell, he is someone I wouldn't want to mess with.

Reputable and decidededly good aikidoka? Not in my town, bud. This is a small town in the UK, not NYC.

Not being totally compliant isn't enough. The resistance offered if a technique was not applied correctly is better than nothing, but no different than what I got in the Bujinkan. Hate to sound like a cliche, but 'alive' training wipes the floor with 'a bit of resistance if it's not applied correctly'. I've never driven an FSO Polonez, but I'm not going to waste my time and money buying one just to discover it's still not as good as the other cars out there.

I'm also very put off by the 'spiritual' side of it. Fine for some, not for me.

Point is, I would try BJJ, Muay Thai, judo, etc, just because the training is more realistic than aikido. Having gone from no resistance to low resistance to full resistance, I can safely say there's not much point training something that is compliant.

I'm generalising and I'm not saying my opinion is fact - it really is me saying what I see. It's an interesting point that Itai made - I'm sure wristlocks and joint locks are fine and dandy, but you need so much more. And no, judo is not complete, but it's bloody good.

Oh, and the Steven Seagal comment was not serious. There's no shame in getting choked out by Gene Lebell, but the guy is a major (wife beating) jerk.

[ArmchairNinja]

What good is it that Ueshiba's aikido was t3h d3ad1y, when noone today practices anything even remotely similar? The ironic part is that the same mellow aikido crowd which feels so damn protective about their "art", are the same people who keep it from ever returning to it's roots by immediately lynching anyone suggesting any practical changes.

[Itai]

What good is it that Ueshiba's aikido was t3h d3ad1y, when noone today practices anything even remotely similar? The ironic part is that the same mellow aikido crowd which feels so damn protective about their "art", are the same people who keep it from ever returning to it's roots by immediately lynching anyone suggesting any practical changes.

Outside of the mainstream Aikido community are the fringe dojos like mine, where effectiveness is ultimately paramount.

One should attempt to refrain from making broad generalizations - they are usually incorrect.

-Itai

[ArmchairNinja]

Why don't you produce some video clips showing examples of your training then? There's been so much talk about "the real aikido", yet noone has been able to display any evidence of it. After I see such a clip, I will gladly admit that I was wrong in my generalization.

[Beatdown Richie]

And if watering down is the probem, then why is Yoshinkan crap?

The short version: Yoshinkan is crap mostly because the training methodology is the most stilted, artificial, progress-hindering **** anyone could come up with.

The long version:
- cooperative drills
- "basic techniques" that just won't fly (like the sankajo that has like 10 different steps)
- "kneeling techniques" instead of proper groundwork
- "training forms" instead of forms that are actually supposed to work
- a basic stance that gets you punched in the face and taken down
- no randori
- more basic techniques
- still no randori
- techniques are done 1-2-3-4... no flow, timing, aliveness
- did I mention no randori?

[Matsufubu]

The short version: Yoshinkan is crap mostly because the training methodology is the most stilted, artificial, progress-hindering **** anyone could come up with.

The long version:
- cooperative drills
- "basic techniques" that just won't fly (like the sankajo that has like 10 different steps)
- "kneeling techniques" instead of proper groundwork
- "training forms" instead of forms that are actually supposed to work
- a basic stance that gets you punched in the face and taken down
- no randori
- more basic techniques
- still no randori
- techniques are done 1-2-3-4... no flow, timing, aliveness
- did I mention no randori?

You forgot to mention randori.

Sorry, just thought it needed pointing out.

[Itai]

Why don't you produce some video clips showing examples of your training then? There's been so much talk about "the real aikido", yet noone has been able to display any evidence of it. After I see such a clip, I will gladly admit that I was wrong in my generalization.

I posted elsewhere on this forum that I will post video of our advanced training methods when I get back from teaching in Japan for a month in mid-September.

- Itai

[UltimateGaijin]

I posted elsewhere on this forum that I will post video of our advanced training methods when I get back from teaching in Japan for a month in mid-September.

- Itai

should be interesting