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  1. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 2:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    I spent the whole summer after high school doing JJJ. Two classes a day, every week day.

    None of that stuff has ever been functional to me unless there is positional dominance or a massive strength differential (and I'm neither a big guy nor a good grappler). Now compare that to a technique like a muy thai neck clench or judo sweep - fairly easy to apply after minimal (alive) training.
    Generally, JJJ are "DO" arts, and are designed to help you 'find the way' through your practice of ma. You obviously did not, and then tried to rely on the techniques you learned for something else. As they probably were not trained for fighting, how would you expect to fight with them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    I was reading on Burton Richardson's website. He does a good job articulating the functional difference between techniques that rely on voluntary compliance due to pain (like pressure point or small joint locks) compared to techniuqes relying on involuntary compliance due to unconciousness or massive trauma (lie a RNC or armbar).
    Burton makes a lot of sense (I have spoken with him quite a few times). However, in the time it would take you to put me on the ground an effect an armbar, I would have dislocated or broken your shoulder, elbow, wrist and/or forearm, and be sitiing on my car hood, drinking a coke. Some of fighting is in what you know. A lot is in how you train.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    Incidentally, I have alot of respect for Jay, but generally, the training methodology of JJJ are outdated. (like no one has pointed that out before).
    Yes, as are most "war arts" when the war aspect is removed. Why don't you go back, get your sandan, and then update it yourself? Any dojo that becomes an "association" is headed down that road. Wait until mma has chains of gyms around the country. . .they'll become tma/cma. bjj/gjj will get to the point where it, too stops evolving due to the reasons for that evolution will have ceased to exist.

    `~/
    Last edited by Meex; 6/24/2005 2:28pm at .
  2. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 5:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Listen goddmit! If they are really "do' arts then they don't end with the 'jutsu' suffix.

    Are you really trying to tell me that 'war arts' are really "peace arts" (totally insane) and "alot is in how you train" (totally freekin' obvious)?

    ***

    And before you have time to apply your deadley skills, you will have to negotiate past my pacifist nature and charming, persuasive personality. And even a kitten like me is gonna serve up enough punches and knees to make you spill your coke.

    The exception is if you are much bigger and stronger than me - not hard, i'm 5/10, 175lb. But succeeding in applying standing small joint locks will be a mostly function of strength over effective technique at that point.

    You can prove me wrong by posting video of you accomplishing your deadly breaks and dislocations against equally experienced judo and BJJ guys.

    Why don't I go get my sandan? Because I've outgrown most of my wannabe asian fetish and am more interested in functional skills that work acgainst resisting opponents, and it is totally obvious to me that the training methodology of MMA is vastly more efficient.

    PS - i live very close to the original small circle dojo in alameda California. Several friends of mine have trained there and they experience the same problem, whether they will admit it or not.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  3. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 5:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Joint locks had its purpose and place at one time. Keep in mind Japanese fighters back then wore body armour so strikes had a less of an effect. (Although joint locks on the ground is still relevant today.)
    Last edited by Freddy; 6/26/2005 12:25am at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  4. Goldust is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 9:06pm


     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At the last grappling tournament that I went to about a month ago in Phoenix I saw a brown belt walk on to the mat to go against a white belt. I thought to myself “What kind of match is this supposed to be, why bother? What’s the point of having a white belt and a brown belt go at it?” Well to my surprise about half way a through a fairly close match the white belt won by submission (arm bar I think). After watching several other colored belts (blue and purple maybe, I don’t really remember) also get beaten by white belts I knew that something just had to be wrong. I thought “What kind of BJJ school can these guys be training out of where brown belts are getting tapped by white belts.” And make no mistake, these guys didn’t look like they just hopped off a plane from Brazil, they looked like your average white belts. Well taking a closer look at their gi’s as they walked off the mat gave me my answer. Their patches read “Wally Jay small circle Jiu-Jitsu”. I’ll give them credit for showing up and giving it a go, but I’m curious what kind of spin you can put on having one of your brown belts get tapped out like that.



    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    Benjamin Franklin
  5. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2005 12:23am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say there are a number of classical jujitsu schools that do have newaza techniques (maybe not as extensive as fusen ryu but never the less they have them). Of course many of the classical jujitsu schools also have many of the same throws found in judo etc.

    In the case of Wally Jay's jujitsu I think its a public misconception that he only teaches small joint manipulation. I'm sure he teaches a whole variety of jujitsu moves from throws to newaza to atemi striking.


    (You do find newaza techniques in a number of jujitsu books even before BJJ was even known in the U.S.)
    Last edited by Freddy; 6/26/2005 12:29am at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  6. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2005 9:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He also taught judo.

    I think that the value of small joint is in self-defense. My kajukenbo instructor once pinched the flesh under an obnoxious drunk's nose and led him outside for a "little talk." I would hazzard a guess that this wouldn't work in the ring. In spite of the ongoing sport vs street/dirty tricks/nut shot and such talk that goes on here, there is a HUGE difference between on the street and on the mat.

    I've only seen two guys who could do good small joint (or even larger, like wrist) in my entire life. A fourth dan Shorinji Kenpo bb, and Shihan Perales (Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo). They could make people dance in circles and the 4th dan did just that to a Kyokushin guy (who out-weighed him by far and was trying his best to beat the **** out of the 4th).
  7. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 10:27am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    Kajukenbo was the first MMA.
    More likely the first 'commercialized' MMA.

    Martial arts have been around too long to give a modern art like Kajukenbo that distinction.

    -daGorilla
  8. punchingdummy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 11:34am

    Join us... or die
     Style: TSK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan
    In spite of the ongoing sport vs street/dirty tricks/nut shot and such talk that goes on here, there is a HUGE difference between on the street and on the mat.
    Wow. Sometimes the simplicity of a statement masks its wisdom. This is one of those statements.


    This tendency for certain Bullshido members to get trapped in the MT/BJJ paradigm prevents them from objectively analyzing different perspectives, and from doing it under different contexts.
  9. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 4:50pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yup. Throw in the headbutting, downward elbow spikes and eyegouging, and it's a whole different ball of wax. Not that a top notch competitive fighter wouldn't still have an advantage over someone who doesn't compete, but sometimes I see some competitors just setting themselves up for nasty tricks. They just need to be aware of such tidbits when they switch to self defense mode.
  10. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2005 7:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by punchingdummy
    Wow. Sometimes the simplicity of a statement masks its wisdom. This is one of those statements.


    This tendency for certain Bullshido members to get trapped in the MT/BJJ paradigm prevents them from objectively analyzing different perspectives, and from doing it under different contexts.
    Wow back at you, thanks punchingdummy.

    *edit*
    I was showing some self=defense stuff to a couple of college age women kickboxers the other day; they'd never thought of shoving their index finger up a guy's nose and jerking it up and out as hard as they could. Or my personal favorite for smaller people, "coconut" their nose with your forehead.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 6/27/2005 8:56pm at .
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