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  1. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 10:33am


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    I have no faith in small joint manipulation.

    I agree with that if it is an all out brawl.

    For folks that have to deal with those that are not fully headsmashing but not fully retreating (LEO dealing with 'soft' resisting people, Mental institutions, School teachers trying to restrain students....) the stuff isn't bad to know.

    The think I don't like about the training is when I see people that don't know how to really 'lock you up' with it and it looks like a bad dating experience: One person keeps trying to grag the other's hands or hug them while the other keeps squirming way.

    Joint controls need to be delivered just as deliberately and quickly and committedly (is that a word?) as if it were a punch, kick or throw.

    THe other reason I think they have validity is that there is a subtle difference in delivery of a 'control' and a 'break' is quickness.

    If I am fumbling with a bad guy and get hold of a finger, toe, wrist....and have trained to twist,pull, press...that joint it is nothing to do the same motion with 'snapping motion' instead of 'pressing motion' so a 'lock' becomes a 'break'
  2. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 10:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I once dislocated my finger while doing some bag work ( don't ask), I poped it back in and finished the last 2 rounds.
  3. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 10:49am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    I have no faith in small joint manipulation.
    There's only two instances where wrist/finger locks work:


    1. Your opponent is totally unprepared and caught by surprise
    (all the standing wristlocks)

    or


    2. You have developed your position and imobilized the limb.
    (which is the basis of judo/bjj type grounwork)

    IMHO Small cirle JJ bets on the first and to a point misses out on the second.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  4. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 11:05am


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    I once dislocated my finger while doing some bag work ( don't ask), I poped it back in and finished the last 2 rounds.

    I won't ask, but I will say this. That pause that you had would have made an opening the opponent if it had been in a real engagement.

    Also, in a real situation, that hand would have been less effective as a tool holding, striking/grabbing weapon to use against your opponent.

    Thirdly, no one was holding on to it for dear life wiggling and twisting it so that all those fun neurons that fire would cause enough pain to make you distracted, drain energy from a fighting will.

    I am not saying you don't have the 'sand,' just that these things do have an impact overall as well as a place in the tool box of skills for some folks.

    It really comes down to time on task: How much time are you spending on the different components of MA: Grappling (standing/ground), striking, blocking, mobility/footwork, tactics.....

    I have a small list of locks and throws (ground and standing) that I try to focus on so that I can do them cold instead of having 1000 that I can half do.

    I asked you before but I think it got lost in the discussion:

    WHat type of operation are you officer of ( I read it in your bio)
    Last edited by loki09789; 6/24/2005 11:08am at .
  5. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 11:10am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan
    Wally Jay was my uncle's Sensei in Judo and Jiu Jitsu and I've met him. The only thing that I don't like is their (Leon the son and Wally) relationship with Dillman, Mr. Pressure Point.

    The style has less live training (from what little I know) than BJJ. It is more like Japanese JJ. Which people like Asia have said they prefer for military use because you don't go to the ground.

    I've been to 1 or 2 seminars featuring Remy Presas, Wally Jay, and Grandmaster Flashpants (Dillman).

    Wally Jay's stuff seemed pretty damn good. I don't think finger breaking is the limit of his art. He's damn good at it though. I suspect he could toss just about anyone on their head with a combination of his judo/jj experience. And he doesn't dislocate fingers, he bloody well breaks them. ow. (I keep thinking of that scene with Rutger Hauer and Harrison Ford in Bladerunner....)

    For the record -- Presas was quite good too. My Arnis instructor was a direct student of his. A pity he died relatively young (in his 60's) from cancer.

    Dillman comes off like a football coach selling books. I'm sure some of his pressure point stuff is fine, but regardless of how legit or illegit his art may be, he seemed more interested in pimping and less interested in showing any worthwhile technique. I suspect this won't surprise anyone here.

    -daGorilla
  6. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 11:30am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by loki09789

    WHat type of operation are you officer of ( I read it in your bio)
    I am Operations Manager of a steel fabrication and pressure vessel company.
  7. Meex is offline
    Meex's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 1:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master
    Right. But you can't necessarily say that Wally Jay's adding the (tm) is to blame, or even a contribution. There's a good chance that he's only done that after the bastardization as a way of protecting himself and his organization.
    TBM may have the correct insight. As another example, Kajukenbo has been used all over the country for at least the past 25 years. Most users aren't officially allowed use, but don't know it. Or, know it, and don't care. The word was trademarked/registered by the originators in the late 1940's, and they don't really acknowledge most of the kajukenbo out there.

    `~/.
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 1:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kajukenbo was the first MMA.
  9. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 1:56pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    About Small Circle, it definitely has it's place. One of my old training partners was in pretty tight with Jay's group, and if he caught your finger, damn you were in for a world of hurt.

    Still, in an out and out brawl, should you rely on snagging a guy's finger from his closed fist that is hurtling toward your face? Of course not. Small circle has it's place, but shouldn't be your bread and butter defense. Still, they have some good tricks that could be useful under certain circumstances.
  10. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2005 2:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BatRonin
    I have no faith in small joint manipulation.
    What he said.

    I spent the whole summer after high school doing JJJ. Two classes a day, every week day.

    None of that stuff has ever been functional to me unless there is positional dominance or a massive strength differential (and I'm neither a big guy nor a good grappler). Now compare that to a technique like a muy thai neck clench or judo sweep - fairly easy to apply after minimal (alive) training.

    I was reading on Burton Richardson's website. He does a good job articulating the functional difference between techniques that rely on voluntary compliance due to pain (like pressure point or small joint locks) compared to techniuqes relying on involuntary compliance due to unconciousness or massive trauma (lie a RNC or armbar).

    Incidentally, I have alot of respect for Jay, but generally, the training methodology of JJJ are outdated. (like no one has pointed that out before).
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
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