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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2004 9:31am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    Just like any other professional, there are good ones and bad ones, trick is knowing who is who. Many if not all states have a Board of Chiropractic, that they must have a licence with to practice within a state.

    Sometimes, opinions of chiropractors are not permitted in Court as to proximate cause. There is no hard and fast standard at this time. Many Chiropractors are whores. By that, I mean they actively recruit patients that were involved in auto accidents. They are worse than lawyers. The tactic is to get the injured into their office under some sort of "free" treatment and then switch them on to something they have to pay for. Next thing you know, they run up a huge bill. What they normally do is suck up all the Medpay a person may have. This fucks over the patient if they don't have hospitilization and need some other care, like an MRI or some other diagnostic test. So, anyway, once the Medpay is gone, the patient is miraculously better, or reached maximum medical improvement, and ot they go. Their notes are usually either fucked up or computer generated. Plus they include all kinds of extraneous things that are not relavant to anything. They send their **** to the insurance company, and **** up the cases. All they really care about is getting paid. Often, a visit to a chiropractor is more expensive than a visit to a specalist!

    I know lots of chiropractors, I like one of them.

    Something which I think needs special attention. If you have any numbness, tingling or radiating pain into any extremity, you should not have chiropractic manipulation because those are signs of a possible intervertebral disc problem. If you have disc damage, you should not be manipulated. Not all chiros take this into consideration. It fucking pisses me off!

    I tried to give Mantis positive rep, for this post but unfortunately I've positive repped him too often in the past and the board told me to spread rep around.

    His post is true on so many levels. Doctors of Chiropractic go to graduate school for three years and then go and practice without a supervised residency system. So even if you accept the theory behind chiropractic, there is really no comparison between say an orthepedic surgeon who is board certified with four years of medical school, a year internship, 4-7 years of residency, and has passed a board certification. Until at least recently DOC schools did not have particularly high standards and were not particularly academically rigerous.

    My knowledge of the theory behind Chiropactic is mostly from the 1960s book, "At Your Own Risk" by Ralph Lee. Basically the theory is that disease is caused mostly by nerves being pinched by the spine. These are called "subluxions" often two DCs can review the same X ray and not "see" the same ones. Since the 60s the DCs have stopped vocalizing that nerve pinches cause diseases like cancer but I don't think they have ever reputiated the theory that nerve problems elminating from the spine can cause say problems in your liver, for example.

    Realisticly, if a DC has the skills of a massage therapist he may be able to do your back some good for muscle problems but I'd generally recommend going to physical therapy or a Massage therapist instead. I also agree with Mantis that DC's have a reputation for being total whores when it comes to the legal process. When ever they start rating perminant impairment, what they say, and what the actual imparement is, often has nothing to do with reality. (It's Monday, lets give everyone a 10% perminant, partial imparement on their back." I trust the ratings of only one chiropractor in the world and interestingly she used to be a pharmicist so she has more scientific background then most.

    Now where did I leave my soap box.
  2. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2004 10:49am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    Because they are "holistic" and "natural"? Who knows? People just want to believe that mainstream medicine is inherently evil, so they find any alternative viable.
    That some chiropractors are crooks is not in doubt. That some surgeons are sadists and that many mds have god complexes also is not in doubt. And that the entire medical/insurance/hospital/health care system of the US is a giant corrupt out of control mess is also not in doubt. As one RN/PhD who works in the vet hospital in SLC told me, western medicine is very good at trauma, bad at dealing with life.

    While there are more safeguards inherent in standard medicine, don't for a second think that putting a md by some guy's name makes him the exclusive purveyor of medical wisdom. For instance the first time (and worst time) I messed up my back I was bed ridden for several days. I was real motivated to heal and I read three books written by mds on back problems. At that time I was a hippie with no insurance and little money. I ended up going to an old lady who would be considered way on the fringe by the medical industry. She gently worked on me, gave me some homeotherapy pills and while not "healed," I was able to walk with out crutches after the first massage. She had various certificates on her wall from massage schools and such, dating back to the 50s. When asked she said that actually most of what she did she learned from seminars given by chiropractors, but most chiropractors had no idea of these methods (she did not 'crack' joints and while she knew shiatsu, didn't like using it).

    It's like the speaker at a church meeting I attended reported. He is called a massage therapist, who deals with emotional and physical injury. Much of his work is done with torture victims and refugees. Doctors usually have no idea how to deal with him. At a weekend conference with mds, health professionals and ill people in Canada he was left out in cold so to speak until he went and worked on a Guatemalan woman who was deeply disturbed by the murder of her family and her rape/torture. She was mentally and physically ill and was an insomniac. This guy was frustrated at being ignored by the mds, so he went to the woman, touched her and did his thing being the conduit for God/nature/the cosmic joke or whatever (he doesn't claim to really know) and she fell into a deep sleep. The mds then said, oh why didn't you tell us, you are a healer. He was like duh! But the important thing was that mds, who by their training are inherently set against the new age wholistic quackery, instantly saw and understood his work.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  3. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2004 11:49am

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The insurance scams and the inferiority complex are at the heart of what's wrong with most Chiropractic.

    The whole original idea of Chiropractic is healing with the hands only. Someone on page one asked why see a chiropractor instead of an osteopath or a something or other... the answer is NOT "because it's natural" or some such bullshit. It SHOULD be because it's affordable. That's a MAJOR advantage of TCM over western stuff here in China. I can get the vast majority of illnessnes treated here through a TCM doctor for a tiny fraction of the cost of a western style one. Right before I left for China I had to get rid of my belongings including 2 cats. They resisted fiercely and my battle with one of them under the poarch of his new owners home left me with an infection in my elbow that sent me to the hospital to have the fluids drained, an IV of anti-biotics hooked up and an overnight stay.

    The bill: about 3 grand.

    People get IV's of antibiotics here in China for about 10 bucks. They don't stay at the hospital but often just walk home with someone holding the damn bag in the air next to them untill they get home and ly on a bed with the IV bag hanging next to them. Our medical system in the US is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. Most Chinese even prefer western style meds if they can afford it but even the 10 bucks AMerican is too pricy for a lot of them so they go the naturalpathic route.

    I had an eye infection in China a few years ago that left me funtionally blind for nearly 3 weeks. I was traveling and refused adamantly to go into a Chinese hospital. I wanted desparately to see a TCM doctor. Ironically all the locals hosting me were frothing at the mouth to get me to see the western guys. But having seen the sanitation in most of China I was afraid I'd come out of the hospital with something worse.

    In the end, I saw a country doctor who treated me initially with needles restoring about 80% of my vision on the spot but then also administering an eyewash and giving me anti-biotic eyeddrops that I was to take every 2 hours for the next couple days.

    My point to these stories is that I really see great value in both approaches but there are practical considerations. Somewhere down the line....mid 70's I think, certain chiropractors figured out that if they set up a more elaborate office, took x-rays, kept people waiting in various rooms and just generally simulated the atmosphere of a typical doctor's office then they would seem more serious and be able to cash in on insurance claims. Realisitcally a chiropracitc treatment only takes a couple minutes and needs nothing more than a table or in many cases jsut a chair.

    Without all the infrastucture it should be an entirely affordable alternative and I believe it's proper place should not be as treatment but more as prevention. It seems to have the best results with weekly or even 3 times a week treatments. And, to me, it is like fine tuning your body. It's like getting a tune up for your car. Minor adjustments that noticeably improve the body's functioning. So they do well on professional athletic teams and when I was getting access to free treatments through a friend it really helped in my gong fu training. Any little kink I had from getting kicked or having a wrist twisted could get basically woked out in half the time regular rest would have taken. But at $40-$80/visit.....no fucking way I could have done that.

    I think chiropractic should be like a gym or something where you pay a monthly fee for twice a week visits. The doctor just checks you over and does his thing and in 5 minutes your out of there. His fee is low but he can treat 5-6 people an hour without even rushing.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  4. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2004 6:23pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alternative meds are cheaper because the product is of cheaper quality.

    If I want to get treatment for an injury, i'll see a read doctor. If I want help with "dealing with life", I'll talk to my wife. I don't need a bitch chiro telling me that subluxations are the cause of all my problems and that I need to get adjustments to my back. **** that that ****. Chiros=quack, for the majority.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  5. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2004 9:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not really true. Med prices are artifically inflated in the states. It's a joke. It's so bad that we went and passed legisltion to ban buying the stuff online from Canada or Mexico.

    "Marvelon" is the most common birth control pill sold in China. It is a Swedish brand, not some cheap Chinese knockoff. But it sells here for about $3 for each 1 month supply.

    The antibiotics I take when I get a sinus infection (all too common in Xi'an due to horrendous air qualityaaaaaa) I get about a 4 day supply for roughly $2.50. If you need to get hooked up on an IV drip of some antibiotics cocktail here it will still only run you about 5 bucks.

    You could argue it's due to the cheap labor here and the local economy is different for the IV but in RMB it's still only about 40 rmb. The equivalent of 40 bucks for the locals. It would be several times that at home. My bill for an IV of anitibiotics at county was 3 grand. And the quality of treatment is not always better with the "real" doctor. I've had injuries where the "real" doctor had nothing more to offer than aspirin. I had a jammed shoulder that had been going on 6 months and still not really back to 100%. The "real" doctor solution? None. I was basically funtional. I just couldn't seem to train my delts without some minor pain and was just kind of weak in the joint. An accupunturist cleared up the problem inside of a week.

    The TCM anti-diarretics sold in China are plenty effective. They need to be. You get the runs a lot in this place. Same for the nasal inhaler for sinuses. The ephedines in that herbal cocktail give you a nice little buzz to. :)

    It's funny how this dichotmy doesn't exist in China. You go into a drug store and it's divided right down the middle for TCM vs. western drugs but just for the convenience of the clerks behind the counter. Everything is sold under the same roof. A lot of the time the will prescribe both or just ask you if you have a preference. There's no chiropractic here but the tui na doctors often do spinal adjustments. But for tui na from someone who graduated from a Chinese medical university the fee at the closest place to where I live is 20 yuan (about $2.75) for roughly an hour treatment. No appointment neccesary.

    If the average chiropractor just let you drop in for a quick adjustment....like anything that had been giving you trouble in training, a bum knee or just a stiff neck because you fell asleep drunk face down on the pillow with your head at a crazy angle and now you can't move it to the right....if that sort of thing was just a drop in for 10 minutes and 20 bucks...would you still think it was quackery?
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  6. Can Chaser is offline
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    Too sick and broken to train

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2004 12:32am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    It was. Your testimonial only tells me that there really wasn't anything wrong with you at all, that you only believed yourself to be sick. In those cases, a naturopath can work wonders, but so can magic, going to church and sacrificing chickens.

    Some MD's are morons, but that one that didn't diagnose you with having a physical problem wasn't.

    My hair was falling out by the handful, and I had fucking giant bald spots. No actual medical problem, of course. I actually wasn't the one that noticed it, even.
    You're just JEALOUS!
  7. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2004 7:30am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can Chaser, I doubt your story and your claims. Testimonials are worth **** to me.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  8. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2004 7:32am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    If the average chiropractor just let you drop in for a quick adjustment....like anything that had been giving you trouble in training, a bum knee or just a stiff neck because you fell asleep drunk face down on the pillow with your head at a crazy angle and now you can't move it to the right....if that sort of thing was just a drop in for 10 minutes and 20 bucks...would you still think it was quackery?
    Not if that's the only thing the claimed to relieve. However, chiro's claim to do many things that are not the evident result of spinal problems. That's where the problem lies. Chiros are nothing more than massage therapists that crack bones.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  9. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2004 7:53am

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     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    If the average chiropractor just let you drop in for a quick adjustment....like anything that had been giving you trouble in training, a bum knee or just a stiff neck because you fell asleep drunk face down on the pillow with your head at a crazy angle and now you can't move it to the right....if that sort of thing was just a drop in for 10 minutes and 20 bucks...would you still think it was quackery?
    To be honest this is where all the chi gung and nei gung type of training comes into its own. You learn it, you practice the joint alignment/stretching and breathing semi-regularly of near religiously depending on how you feel and then when something minor does screw up, you can sort it out yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  10. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2004 8:00am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thaiboxeren,

    Fair enough. I personally wouldn't say "just" a massage therapist though. A massage therapist can legally practice with as little as 100 hours of training and is not even CLOSE to being a primary care physiscian.

    Jekyl,

    I agree completely but how many people are honestlky going to do post standing for 20 minutes to an hour a day even if they are in pain?
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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