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  1. Siphus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2005 11:04pm


     Style: Genbukan Ninpo Bugei

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    I'm getting sick of this tired old bullshit. Kano was not taught by Takamatsu.

    Hint - do your own research, and make note of the dates.
    May I refer you to these non-ninjutsu sites:

    "(14) Kukishin Ryu. Kukishin is particularly well-known for its techniques involving staves of various lengths. Kano was a weapons expert, so it is not surprising that Takamatsu and Kano were relatively close friends and colleagues. Takamatsu's favorite empty-hand technique was a technique that most of us would recognize as hiza-guruma. It is from Takamatsu that Judo's hiza-guruma comes."

    from: http://judo1.net/ju01002.htm

    "After that ground fighting was incorporated into the Judo syllabus. It was at this time that Kodakan Judo arrived in Brazil and was taught to the Gracie family, when ground fighting was new and fresh in the teacher's minds. In 1912 many Jiu Jitsu leaders met with Kano to finalise the Kodokan syllabus. One of these leaders was Takamatsu Sensei who was referred to as a weapons master from the Kukishin Ryu. For those of you who don't know, Takamatsu Sensei was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher"

    from: http://www.yeodojo.net/

    " In 1912, Kano brought together the remaining leading masters of Jiujitsu to finalize a Kodokan syllabus of training and kata. Jushin Sekiguchi and Mogichi Tsumizu participated from Sekiguchi Ryu, Eguchi from Kyushin Ryu, and Hoshino from Shiten Ryu, Inazu from Miura Ryu. Aoyagi of Sosusihis Ryu, Yano, Takano, Kotaro Imei and Hikasuburo Ohshima participated from Takeuisi Ryu. Takamatsu, a Kukkishin Ryu expert, had worked with Kano on weapons, at which Kano was recognized as expert, and contributed his favorite personal technique of hiza guruma, which remains today as a popular Judo competition technique. "

    from: http://www.gracie-jiu-jitsu-videos.com/history.htm

    ----------

    Nice job, tool.

    Excuse me for using logic, but... Wouldn't ninja be more concerned with leaving the "scene of the crime" than actual hand-to-hand combat skills?
    Yeah your right. One of the major principles in the genbukan is the attitude of not boxing a boxer, not grappling a grappler, etc.
  2. Siphus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2005 11:06pm


     Style: Genbukan Ninpo Bugei

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just realized how incredibly off topic this thread has gotten.
  3. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2005 11:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have yet to see a wristlock/throw in any MMA event. Then again, I have seen a couple of spinning kicks. However, exceptions do not make the rule. Wristlocks are **** standing up. On the ground, if you have good position, they can be good subs. But, on the ground, if you have good position, you can slowly rape your opponent as well.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  4. WarriorOfLuv is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2005 11:23pm


     Style: Russian boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your question will be answered when you will see Royler Gracie fight the aikido/boxing stylist Koji Yoshida at an upcoming fighting event.
  5. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2005 11:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "It is widely said/well known that..." is only valid evidence when you are playing Way of the Samurai.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  6. Itai is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2005 12:26am


     Style: Ryokukai Aikibudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    On the topic of trolling:
    Back to Aikido:

    I must say I've sparred people from lots of styles and never came across someone who was good at fighting with Aikido... it looks cool and I love the detailed concepts in it but seems too abstract with no real sparring, little aerobic conditioning or strength work, no kicks or punches practiced much. In some ways it looks like magic judo where things don't have to work. Kind of like japanese Tai Chi... wow I think I've insulted almost all the non-BJJers out there.
    I study Ryokukai Aikido. My teacher, Katsumi Niikura Sensei has given very few blackbelts in his version of Aikido, here in the United States and even fewer in his dojo in Japan which is primarily Karate. I should mention that Sensei was not only a direct student of, and awarded Shihan by Morhei Ueshiba O'Sensei, founder of Aikido, but an Uchi-deshi (Live-in student) to Kanken Toyama - one of the orignal Okinawan karateka in Japan. Sensei Niikura won the All-Japan Karate Championship in 1968, and his brother and daughter still run the original Ryokukai Karate dojo in Japan. He was brought to the U.S. in 1980 to help set up the United States for Karate to be an exhibition game in the Olympics - but ultimately chose to teach his expression of Aikibudo as he didn't care for the "American Karate scene" politics. Another interesting sidenote is that Tokey Hill, the only American to ever win the International Karate Championship, was Niikura Sensei's student.

    Subsequently Ryokukai Aikibudo is a blend of Aikido with traditional Karate and Judo - Niikura was awarded San-dan by the Kodokan in Judo, holds a Nana-dan in Karate, as well as his Aikido credentials. Also influencing Ryokukai is Sensei's training in other style of Jujustu, Taido (traditional Okinawan grappling) Sumo and Kenjutsu.

    Several of Sensei Niikura's Gaijin (non-Japanese) students (including myself) travel to Japan with and without Niikura Sensei to teach Ryokukai Aikibudo at some pretty harcore Karate dojos and do workshops both on the mainland and in Okinawa, as well as around the U.S. We anticipate and prepare ourselves for challenges, especially as foreigners coming to a distant land to teach an indigenous combative artform, but generally we get people's respect regarding the true effectiveness of our teacher's expression of Aikido.

    My point is that I'm sure that my teacher's style of Aikido is effective and that several of the Yudansha here can and have made it work effectively on the street and on the mat.

    The Aikido of the Ryokukai is hardcore and complex, that's the only way I can describe it. I will try to post some video of our advanced training at the Honbu Dojo after I get back from Japan in September.

    -Itai

    P.S. I assure you wristlocks aren't worthless. Like using any tool, it is most effective when used properly at the correct time.
    Last edited by Itai; 6/22/2005 12:33am at .
  7. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2005 2:59am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    Right... So if you arent trying to fight someone in a ring, or go into the UFC, your a *****? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but ok. You DO realize that fighting and self defense are different right? K, just making sure.
    No, if you aren't willing to train at a high level possible against fully resisting opponents (aliveness, heard of it?), you are then a *****. That's the only way to safely pressure test a technique. What do you do for self defense training? Beat up drunks at bars with your kata to make sure your street certified stuff works? Try mastering positioning fundamentals first. Then you can do you street leathal techniques.
  8. Siphus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2005 2:08pm


     Style: Genbukan Ninpo Bugei

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well thats your stupid ass opinion and I dont agree with it. Sorry.
  9. Ainttappin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2005 2:19pm


     Style: MT,bJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    Well thats your stupid ass opinion and I dont agree with it. Sorry.
    MAN!! MY thread soooooo got hijacked!
  10. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2005 4:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, to be fair, I set you up. I could have gone into more detail, but I wanted to see if you posted the same "tired old bullshit" links that get cited every damn time I've had this debate.

    And you fell for it. First, let's consider your references:

    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    May I refer you to these non-ninjutsu sites:

    "(14) Kukishin Ryu. Kukishin is particularly well-known for its techniques involving staves of various lengths. Kano was a weapons expert, so it is not surprising that Takamatsu and Kano were relatively close friends and colleagues. Takamatsu's favorite empty-hand technique was a technique that most of us would recognize as hiza-guruma. It is from Takamatsu that Judo's hiza-guruma comes."

    from: http://judo1.net/ju01002.htm
    Steve Cunningham. I've met him; good judo. Not so sure about the history. Others have comment on the accuracy of this particular (note the disclaimer at the bottom) oral history. See http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1544 .

    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    "After that ground fighting was incorporated into the Judo syllabus. It was at this time that Kodakan Judo arrived in Brazil and was taught to the Gracie family, when ground fighting was new and fresh in the teacher's minds. In 1912 many Jiu Jitsu leaders met with Kano to finalise the Kodokan syllabus. One of these leaders was Takamatsu Sensei who was referred to as a weapons master from the Kukishin Ryu. For those of you who don't know, Takamatsu Sensei was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher"

    from: http://www.yeodojo.net/
    Can't call this a non-ninjutsu site.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.yeodojo.net/
    The instructor is Simon Yeo who holds a 10th degree black belt in Bujinkan Ninjutsu
    And no references, so what good is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    " In 1912, Kano brought together the remaining leading masters of Jiujitsu to finalize a Kodokan syllabus of training and kata. Jushin Sekiguchi and Mogichi Tsumizu participated from Sekiguchi Ryu, Eguchi from Kyushin Ryu, and Hoshino from Shiten Ryu, Inazu from Miura Ryu. Aoyagi of Sosusihis Ryu, Yano, Takano, Kotaro Imei and Hikasuburo Ohshima participated from Takeuisi Ryu. Takamatsu, a Kukkishin Ryu expert, had worked with Kano on weapons, at which Kano was recognized as expert, and contributed his favorite personal technique of hiza guruma, which remains today as a popular Judo competition technique. "

    from: http://www.gracie-jiu-jitsu-videos.com/history.htm
    Several inaccuracies there. The part you quoted, and several of the historical inaccuracies, are a rehash of Cunningham's page. For example,
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.gracie-jiu-jitsu-videos.com/history.htm
    Takeuchi Ryu itself was a derivative of Daito Ryu Jiujitsu.
    Again, see http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1544 for more comments.

    Now, let's consider the facts that can be verified independently.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://judo1.net/ju01002.htm
    Takamatsu's favorite empty-hand technique was a technique that most of us would recognize as hiza-guruma. It is from Takamatsu that Judo's hiza-guruma comes."
    Do you even know what hiza-guruma looks like? There is a technique called hiza-guruma in one of the Takamatsu related arts, but it is nothing like the Kodokan hiza guruma.

    But, more importantly (and why I suggested you note the dates) - hiza guruma is part of the original gokyo, which dates back to 1895. Takamatsu would have been, what, 8 years old?

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.yeodojo.net/
    In 1912 many Jiu Jitsu leaders met with Kano to finalise the Kodokan syllabus. One of these leaders was Takamatsu Sensei who was referred to as a weapons master from the Kukishin Ryu.
    According to Bujinkan histories, Takamatsu was in China at the time - perhaps he traveled back for the meeting, but no mention is made of that - see http://www.ninjutsu.com/osensei-takamatsu.shtml , http://www.geocities.com/mrdsouza/takamatsu.html - from the latter:
    After he spent ten years in China, Takamatsu returned to Japan in 1919
    1919-10 = 1909, so Takamatsu not in Japan in 1912.

    Unless you have credible evidence to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siphus
    Nice job, tool.
    Now that I've shown you a little bit about how to go about historical research, perhaps you want to rethink that comment. Note that I've stayed with internet resources; I haven't even touched my library.

    Seriously, did you just Google "kano+takamatsu" and stop there?
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 6/22/2005 4:42pm at . Reason: fixed quotes
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