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  1. Lane is offline
    Lane's Avatar

    Ex-ninja

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 1:36am


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murphy
    Judo is a form of JJJ
    Sure. In the same way kendo is a form of kenjutsu. That is, it is a sport version of it.
  2. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 7:03am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Who cares who beat who 50 or 100 years ago ? Worry about the state of your training now.

    I have seen a couple of JJJ (Japanese Ju Jutsu) dojo's here in Sydney. Now from what I have seen they share the same problem as Ninjutsu - thats the Bujinkan.

    The problem is no free practice. In other words no sparring against a resisting opponant. They simply attack one another in a pre arranged and co operative mannner. Oh and there is not much fitness based training either.

    Theoretically Japanses Ju Jutsu has the lot. Judo comes from JJJ. BJJ is based on Judo as we all know by now. The problem is not with the techniques in the art. Its HOW they are being taught- any system which does no sparring is just doing a dis-service to its students.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  3. king of seals is offline

    HONEY BADGER!

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 9:04am


     Style: Pankration

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal
    No sparring against a resisting opponent.
    This is why:

    1) Judokas > JuJutsukas

    2) The soke of my JJ style studied Judo for years. And his son does the same: he's been training in Judo for years and has never been taught nothing of JJ. Until now.
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 9:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think it's considered classical JJJ (was synthesized from Judo, Aikido and Japanese Kempo in the mid-20th century), but http://www.jitsufoundation.org practices a style they call Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu. I watched a class and then went back and took part in one this week.

    They did fitness work (being out of shape, I found it hard going, even though they were taking it easy that night because it was really hot.), and practiced some resistive drills (we did some basic groundwork where we started back to back and then had to spin round and try and pin our opponent down with their back to the mat, just like I remember from Judo as a kid.)
    They also taught breakfalling as I remember it being done in Judo.

    Where it parted company from judo was that some standing wrist-grab escapes and armlocks were practiced, and some weapons defence was practiced (trying to disarm an empty plastic bottle from your opponent whilst they hit you over the head with it. This started out compliant, and was then livened up so the attacker was trying to hit you and not let you take the bottle). I'm guessing this stuff came from Aikido or classical JJJ.

    There was a little bit of striking. We practiced some simple throws and choke escapes which were generally finished with a strike. We practiced throwing opponents who were coming in with a punch or a front kick.

    The organisation also holds regular competitions with Judo rules that Judoka participate in.
    I know a lot of people here might scoff at the 'wrist-grab-escape' stuff, and recommend I just do Judo instead, but I like practicing the judo-type stuff against strikes, and the little bit of striking they teach seemed straightforward. The aikido-like stuff was just a small part of it, and they do understand the value of conditioning and competition. They were friendly and inexpensive. I will go back for more.
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/26/2005 1:40pm at . Reason: typo in url
  5. CanucKyokushin is offline

    He'll flip ya!

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 10:14am

    supporting member
     Style: Not.....working

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can’t say anything about if Hapkido is the more popular style these days or if Judo did beat JJJ a hundred years ago…

    However, just a quick reply, because I gots to go. Most of the original Jiu-jitsu styles that have arrived here in the U.S or Canada and either strayed toward point-pressure and chi-blast organizations .The Dillmans or American Eagle guys are who I'm talking about.

    OR

    If (and one big if for that matter ) have smart Senseis and Masters who have witness what Pride and UFC is really all about and have evolve their training so fort into that 'WAY' of fighting.

    So, in final that is the state of JJJ in the US.
  6. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 10:25am

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JJJ becomes more effective if enka music is playing in the background.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  7. Sophist is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 10:41am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cullion, you typoed Jitsu Foundation.

    And seriously, their "resistance" is usually nothing like alive training. Saying the organisation also holds judo competitions that judoka participate in is disingenous; it's a competition held to a slightly strange version of judo rules (no naked chokes etc) which only Jitsu people participate in. Those who have cross-trained in judo naturally tend to do much better than those who have not.

    Conditioning and competition? Just... no. Competition in particular is restricted to a couple of events per year, one being the Atemi Nationals (think figure skating, the people who look best while coping with canned attacks win) and the pseudo-judo competition just mentioned.

    I seem to recall posting on this before last time you asked about them, and PMing you after. They exhibit all the standard flaws of "jujitsu" when it comes to training method, and if you're not seeing them it's because you're not experienced enough to realise what poor training methods look like. The strikes they throw for each other are.... well, laughable, really, huge haymakers and karate punches in which the striker takes his own balance. Then the hand is left extended, and no attempt is made to punch properly with the other hand. Learning throws like this gives very little that can be used on a resisting opponent, particularly as various judo techniques have been bastardised into versions that don't work as well (but "look" better). Ippon-seo-nage without straightening the legs, tai-otoshi without any real force being applied by the upper body... sparring would show these problems up brutally, but randori is rare. I've seen high grades of theirs sparring low judo grades, and jitsu stand-up grappling is simply inadequate; I'd hate to see them striking against a trained striker. Higher grades may have okay groundwork, but not for the length of time spent in the art.

    If you're not at all interested in self defence, and your aim is solely to get fit and expand your social circle, jitsu will do that for you to a degree (their conditioning is still vastly less than that of many a decent judo club). So would a lot of things that aren't martial arts, but if you get a kick out of putting on a gi and addressing brown belts as Sempai, go do it. But if self defence is an aim of yours, you need to be doing something that incorporates vastly more alive training.

    Edited to clarify that the sparring of jitsu guys vs judo guys I noticed was when some jitsu guys started cross-training judo; of course it didn't happen on a jitsu mat.
    Last edited by Sophist; 6/25/2005 10:43am at .
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 12:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Cullion, you typoed Jitsu Foundation.

    And seriously, their "resistance" is usually nothing like alive training.
    The groundwork we did seemed resistant, but I am not an experienced grappler. We were told simply 'try and pin your opponent down', and each of my partners did indeed seem to do their best to pin me down.

    Saying the organisation also holds judo competitions that judoka participate in is disingenous; it's a competition held to a slightly strange version of judo rules (no naked chokes etc) which only Jitsu people participate in. Those who have cross-trained in judo naturally tend to do much better than those who have not.
    The 'judo' competitions are open to judoka who don't also train in jitsu, and I've been told that judoka enter (whether or not only judoka who cross-train in jitsu enter is something I don't know. You may well be right). The competitive grappling is segmented by grade as well as weight and gender, and the rules become less restrictive for higher grades.

    Conditioning and competition? Just... no. Competition in particular is restricted to a couple of events per year, one being the Atemi Nationals (think figure skating, the people who look best while coping with canned attacks win) and the pseudo-judo competition just mentioned.

    I seem to recall posting on this before last time you asked about them, and PMing you after.
    You did indeed, and your advice is much appreciated.
    I don't really know anything about the atemi nationals, so they might indeed suck.
    However, the choice of martial arts in Oxford is limited, so I went to try a class anyway. Some of the criticisms you mention are things I haven't seen happen at this particular club. See below.

    They exhibit all the standard flaws of "jujitsu" when it comes to training method, and if you're not seeing them it's because you're not experienced enough to realise what poor training methods look like.
    That could easily be the case. I have a couple of years experience in each of Judo (as a kid), TKD and WC, with smatterings of other things. I've never had the good fortune to live near a KK, MT, BJJ or full-contact kickboxing club, and when I did Judo it was in an all-childrens class.

    The strikes they throw for each other are.... well, laughable, really, huge haymakers and karate punches in which the striker takes his own balance.
    The striking I saw was all pulled in the drills, but I didn't see huge haymakers or deliberate lurching/overbalancing to help the throws along at this club.

    ... various judo techniques have been bastardised into versions that don't work as well (but "look" better). Ippon-seo-nage without straightening the legs, tai-otoshi without any real force being applied by the upper body... sparring would show these problems up brutally, but randori is rare.
    I haven't had enough lessons at this club yet to judge how rare randori is, nor whether throws have been deliberately messed with to make them 'pretty'.

    I've seen high grades of theirs sparring low judo grades, and jitsu stand-up grappling is simply inadequate; I'd hate to see them striking against a trained striker. Higher grades may have okay groundwork, but not for the length of time spent in the art.
    Hmm.. I'll keep my eyes open.

    If you're not at all interested in self defence, and your aim is solely to get fit and expand your social circle, jitsu will do that for you to a degree (their conditioning is still vastly less than that of many a decent judo club).
    I'm mostly interested in fitness, but I'll keep an eye out for the bad stuff you describe. The reason I'm giving it a chance is that my time and money budgets are limited, and there isn't much choice in Oxford (I still have to give Jekyll's tai chi club a look, I keep saying I'll go and then not having time). In particular, the judo club's training hours don't match my schedule very well, and I've been told I'm told old to take up amateur boxing. There's no BJJ, Sambo, MMA, KK, MT or full-contact kickboxing available that I know of, either. Were any of the arts in the list available, then I would definitely be checking them out.

    However, some of the bad things you describe don't seem to be happening at this club, yet. Maybe you had a bad experience with a particular school, or maybe it was a while ago, and they've improved their game by in light of developments due to MMA in martial arts training methods?

    As it is, I'm left with a choice of Jekylls tai chi club or Jitsu, unless anybody in the Oxford area knows better.. ?
  9. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 2:43pm

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     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    As it is, I'm left with a choice of Jekylls tai chi club or Jitsu, unless anybody in the Oxford area knows better.. ?
    'Where are you striking?' 'The larynx, Sensei!' 'And what happens when you strike someone in the larynx?' 'They die, Sensei!' 'Well don't do it then!'
    - Phil Merchant and a dan, at the Nationals
    http://www.oxfordjitsu.co.uk/quotes....db0483a4d2348a

    :5zombie:

    I've met one of the senseis of the club and rolled with a couple of members at judo. Make yourself go to one of the judo or tai chi classes so you can see what the difference is. Sophist seems to be bang on the money with his comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 3:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll

    I've met one of the senseis of the club and rolled with a couple of members at judo. Make yourself go to one of the judo or tai chi classes so you can see what the difference is. Sophist seems to be bang on the money with his comments.
    I will be coming to your tai chi place to check it out, but I won't promise when because I keep doing that and then missing it due to other committments. I'm sure the judo club is excellent, but their timetable doesn't fit with mine.
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