Bullshido kata

**I aint punchy!?** · Posted On: 6/17/2005 10:40pm

what bs ... as if choking someone in 'self-defense' is going to stand up in court.... you are attacking them from behind, so how are you going to demonstrate a real and immediate threat? ... anyone who uses that for self-defense better have the best lawyer in the world.

low stances are very good at close range because they lower your centre of gravity and give pulls more force, and can be used to escape holds etc. The problem with them is that people fight from low stances at long range.... erm... a tad stoopid.

**Poop Loops** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 12:17am

Many a time have I started facing my opponent and ended up taking his back or vice versa. It's actually quite easy to do when you know what you are doing, and the other guy doesn't. And if I get a RNC in, I'm not letting go.

PL

**Painful Delight** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 12:29am

Originally Posted by Poop-Loops

Many a time have I started facing my opponent and ended up taking his back or vice versa. It's actually quite easy to do when you know what you are doing, and the other guy doesn't. And if I get a RNC in, I'm not letting go.

PL

If you have the skill to get behind and perform a RNC on an opponent, you likely wouldn't need a Velcro-choking watch thingy.

**Poop Loops** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 12:32am

I know. Punchy said choke, which means any choke. There are MANY chokes out there. And even the ones from behind don't require you to sneak up on your opponent, just GET behind him.

PL

**lifetime** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 7:07am

PL, if you're in a superior position to end the fight, you're going to have a really hard time justifying your actions as self-defence before a court. By taking the back, you already have the option to get yourself out of danger. BJJ's best street application, I can imagine, would be to get you out of a bad position rather than to take good position and choke a bitch out. Honestly, I can't imagine a court looking too kindly on submissions in general, especially if they result in real damage. A court will probably imagine you hitting back in self-defence, but the fact that a submission automatically places you in a controlling position in the engagement is not going to look good. They're going to rationalise that if you already control the fight, you should be making best efforts to get out of it rather than to inflict unnecessary damage.

Edit: in response to Painful Delight: If you have the skill to take an opponent's back, you probably have the skill to just run away. A choke is in most instances, legally unnecessary.

**MattJ** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 8:36am

Mr Mantis -

I have never been able to use those kinds of stances, nor do I ever see them in competitions (except forms). I was refering to competition or SD value.

**patfromlogan** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 8:47am

I think putting together a dumbass kata is a great idea. We could take moves from the 3 stooges; finger poke, hand up with the thumb to the nose defense against finger poke, the slapidy slap slap, the nose twist, and so forth.

**Fantasy Warrior** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 11:27am

Pat, cheers for the moral support. Keep the suggestions rolling.

PL/ lifetime/ I ain't Punchy,
We all know that in SD it's not so much what you do, but how you desribe it to the court. Saying:
"I wanted to do him fast so I got into a dominate position and executed a rear-naked choke with figure-four lock up, he went unconscious as I'd intended"
....is crapper than saying:
"He was coming at me, I was scared. In the tussel I found myself hanging around his shoulders. I squeezed to stop him trying to hit me. He collapsed so I let go and at that moment, I reckoned he was no longer attacking me so I made my escape"
...both accounts of the same event. Savvy???? lol.

Anyway, no such choke holds in the bullshido kata as they tend to be too likely to succeed. We need crap factor *100

**Kayne** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 9:00pm

Hmm, a choker watch? Why not just use your other arm?

**felixmeister** · Posted On: 6/18/2005 9:00pm

Originally Posted by lifetime

PL, if you're in a superior position to end the fight, you're going to have a really hard time justifying your actions as self-defence before a court. By taking the back, you already have the option to get yourself out of danger. BJJ's best street application, I can imagine, would be to get you out of a bad position rather than to take good position and choke a bitch out. Honestly, I can't imagine a court looking too kindly on submissions in general, especially if they result in real damage.

Chokeing is probably the least damageing of the things you could do to someone in a fight (apart from running away). To kill or permanently damage somone you would have to keep the choke on for at a couple of minutes. Plus it's a fight ender, once they're unconcious, game over.

A court will probably imagine you hitting back in self-defence, but the fact that a submission automatically places you in a controlling position in the engagement is not going to look good. They're going to rationalise that if you already control the fight, you should be making best efforts to get out of it rather than to inflict unnecessary damage.

It could quite easily be argued that you feared for them chasing you down, and a doctor will be able to testify that out of the options of 1. chokeing them out, 2. beating them unconcious, 3. breaking a limb or joint with a sub, 4. similar damage with a chin-na or akido small joint break, that the choke is the least damaging to the victim.

Edit: in response to Painful Delight: If you have the skill to take an opponent's back, you probably have the skill to just run away. A choke is in most instances, legally unnecessary.

This would also preclude hitting, tripping, or subbing the attacker as if you have the skill to take an opponent's back, you probably have the skill to just run away.
Once you have let go of them, unless you have done something to diminish their ability to continue attacking, running away is simply presenting your back for them to attack, not the best option.