Ironshirt

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 11:28am

Originally Posted by xingyifa

Wow, great replies everyone. I really like that TKD link, and I'll see if I can get the school library to order those books. (ya never know, I might decide to cross over to the lucrative Mcdojo side of the force someday....jk)

Also, with regard to the philosophical argument of believing in miracles (chi explained or otherwise), I like Hume's take which basically says : in order for a miracle to be truly and logically believable, it would have to be more UNBELIEVABLE for the miracle to NOT have occured than otherwise. Granted, this was more of an argument against christianity but I like Hume's style.

Basically, as far as I can see, the only body conditioning that makes sense is the toughening of striking points and a sharp aerobic/anaerobic regimen that focuses on endurance and recovery time/capillary sheet transfer. Perhaps some work with a medicine ball? Would everyone generally agree that anything else is probably indicative of bullshido?
metta

i agree 100%

**Ronin** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 11:38am

Training to allow your body to get "used" to getting hit and being able to contract/relax the appropriate muscles when they are impacted on, is pretty standard stuff in any "combat sport" where striking is involved.

**xingyifa** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 12:00pm

I've seen people train their core muscles via medicine balls and the occasional slapping/pounding action during crunches. Is this what you were referring to bat or does your style(s) have a different approach? Usually pretty much anything else is inspired by mystical energy training in my experience but I've still got a lot to learn.

Also, I left out resistance training in my list of conditioning methods that i think are pretty scientifically sound...oops.

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 12:11pm

weight training = american qigong

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a interesting book on the history of iron shirt qigong (in addition to other things) called Qigong - Secret of Youth ....

You could find it at www.ymaa.com or http://store.yahoo.com/ymaa/qigsecofyout.html

**xingyifa** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 12:34pm

I actually used to read/own some of dr. yang jwing-ming's books back in high school *hangs head in shame*. Actually, the guy has a degree in chinese medicine and sports medicine (i think) which puts him heads above the other frauds in the chinese community. Still, he uses the same sort of flimsy anecdotal evidence as all the other people who claim that internal training is enough to win fights and I'm not aware that his school has produced any full contact champions which is usually the sign of a good kung fu school.
While I'm confessing, I actually used to own a copy of Mantak Chia's book on ironshirt and I even perused *shudder* a book called Empty Force by Paul Dong once. *Sigh* Youthful indiscretions, what can i say?

**Quikfeet509** · Posted On: 6/16/2005 3:03pm

Naw, Dr. Yang has a doctorate in electrical engineering or something like that. I have seen him do the Yang Taijiquan form and it was very impressive. He also dropped me to the ground with a chin na move, but I asked him to so my friend could take a picture.

It kinda hurt. Especially when I tried to roll out of it and he set it in more.

**jackal** · Posted On: 6/17/2005 12:49am

Why do people insist that chi is mystical? Just because something may not be intuitively obvious doesnt mean it's not true. Just for interest sake i'll share my personal view, i believe that the human body exhibits a duality the same way light does, it can be viewed as a wave or a particle, similarly the human body can be viewed from the muscular strength perspective or the chi power perspective, it's just different ways of looking at the same thing. But then as with light some phenomena cannot be explained by using one model, try explaining interference patterns using the particle model...

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 6/17/2005 1:04am

Well, wave and particle models of light are demonstrable and studied. They are not equally esoteric, nor is one patently obvious while one requires a leap of faith. Your personal view needs a little more backup before you compare it to science.

**jackal** · Posted On: 6/17/2005 2:24am

The internal view does not require a leap of faith any more than the western one. Either you use it or you don't. Science was just an analogy, my point is that the internal power view is just another way of looking at the human body.

**Astrosmurf** · Posted On: 6/17/2005 2:27am

Originally posted by Jackal
Why do people insist that chi is mystical? Just because something may not be intuitively obvious doesnt mean it's not true. Just for interest sake i'll share my personal view, i believe that the human body exhibits a duality the same way light does, it can be viewed as a wave or a particle, similarly the human body can be viewed from the muscular strength perspective or the chi power perspective, it's just different ways of looking at the same thing. But then as with light some phenomena cannot be explained by using one model, try explaining interference patterns using the particle model...

You really have to elaborate ALOT on this to make it make any sense at all.