KyokuNINJAKAN?

[SomeInfo]

Sensei is being incredibly modest when he says he is tougher than he looks. Though capable of extreme violence if called for, he is also a very funny, upbeat, merciful man who has touched the lives of many people, probably more than he even knows, and helped his community and others far more than any of the critics I am sure. I still remember the photos and thank you letters on the wall from an impoverished kid overseas that he sponsored.

Unlike most places, he accepted all kinds of students, not just 18-28 year old "tough guys" or wannabes with money. He taught people who had a valid need to know how to protect themselves, including older housewives, scared girls going to dangerous high schools, and even people with moderate injuries if they could work around them. I remember one girl was only about 4 foot 10 - it would have been very easy for sensei to just pack his class with big tough young guys to make the school look "bad ass" but he was far more interested in helping people who really needed to learn to defend themselves, not dumbasses looking for bar fights.

Sensei went out of his way to nurture students, even young ignorant ones such as myself when I was 19. I remember one day he filled in and free fought with me when I was a beginner. He went about 20 times slower than normal, and set me up perfectly so I could learn and get a few shots in. I remember I managed to hit him once with his help, and I got real scared, thinking he would get me back - as soon as he saw I was scared, he just smiled and said "hey, ya got one in!" and my apprehension vanished.

With his skills it would have been very easy to shove people around, but he never played the bully. In fact, if you were walking through a park one night and got jumped by three guys with knives (or guns), you would pray that someone like Tony was walking by, because he'd rush in without thought to himself - even if he didn't know you.

He was extremely patient and never belittled anyone - even though with his abilities I'm sure beginners looked incredibly clumsy if not outright epileptic. I remember one day one of the more eccentric older guys in class asked him the dumbest question I ever heard - "can a marine beat a japanese person?" Sensei took a deep breathe, ran his fingers through his hair, and then calmly explained that "not all Japanese people study karate." There were plenty of times when he patiently explained moves to students, even though he was respected so much that he could have just said "shut up and do it" and would have been obeyed.

Sensei never bragged about his past exploits - for the whole 5 years I went there on and off, I remember only 3 times he even mentioned his military carreer, and in every case it was only because a student had come in and started talking about some news headline that was relavent. Yet we all knew he had had more dangerous experiences than most of us would every have in 5 lifetimes. One day some of the guys were talking excitedly about paintball (it was trendy back then) and sensei overhead them as he walked by and just winked and said "ya outta try the real thing some time." It made an impression, because he HAD done "the real thing."

He was extremely humble. The guy has more black belts in different arts than most people have in "Calvin Kline," yet he hardly ever mentioned them. He wore a fairly simple black belt with red stripes for each dan - by rights he was entitled to wear much a more elaborate belt.

I am very grateful for the potentially life-saving training I received from Sensei Tony as I am sure are countless others.

[raylawley]

Hi Tony; Not sure if you've read my discussion with SomeInfo earlier in this thread, but there are some things of a fairly serious nature that I think need to be discussed.

SomeInfo has given us a number of very disturbing anecdotes in relation to yourself and your training. Here are some of these anecdotes:

In Kyokuninjan sparring, which Tony called "Free fighting" the only protective gear used is a cup, and those spongey thin white hand guards.

And your own comment on this subject:

You must learn to fight comfortably in normal clothing to understand how it feels. No prep or warm up. No “fluffy” pads, helmets or other protection except a groin cup (upper ranks use thin fist pads when fighting lower ranks to minimize accidental face contact injuries). Besides, someone might want to reproduce someday and it still hurts.

Tony, do you actually endorse what sounds like full-contact training with such minimal protective gear? It's extremely dangerous, I'm sure you'll agree. I personally refuse to spar at all without a mouthguard. Teeth are expensive.

No prep or warmup? I hope you realise, as someone who has obviously had experience with Kyokushin and therefore undoubtedly with stretching and warmups, that the purpose of a prep / warmup is to reduce chances of injury in training. It does not make you any more "street prepared" to injure yourself regularly because you did not warm up before training.

The downsides of injury associated with not using suffient protective gear, not to mention the medical costs, far outweigh any benefits to be gained from a self-defence perspective.

When the black belts fought one another, they almost tried to kill each other. In one incident two 3-4th degrees were fighting, one was 6-4 tall and he did a stepping back kick into the other guy, who was 6-2 and basically got bent around his foot in a "U" shape. Tony commented "I thought he was gonna die." Fortunately, the guy was very flexible and did not die, but anyone without a very flexible spine would have been ... injured bad.

Can you comment on this incident? It sounds extremely unlikely. It also sounds like a fairly excessive amount of force to be using in training.

The only reason I can even think of for someone to post stories such as these is an attempt to impress people with the toughness of their training.

That isn't going to cut it here, especially since it's such a common occurence for stories like these to actually be investigated.

I remember one kid who later went on to earn a black belt, whose gi was covered with blood one day from getting punched in the nose during free fighting. But don't get the wrong idea, they only start really beating you up once you are around purple belt, they don't brutalize lower belts, they just smack them a little.

The next issue I'd like to cover is SomeInfo's claim of threats you had made to students:

Tony said he had personally witnessed 2 guys lose eyes in fights, one was in a tournament, it was a racial beef between the two combatants back during black power era, the other was two students horsing around. He told us if that happened from us horsing aorund, he'd take one eye from the other guy to make things even.
...
Same with elbow breaks, if you accidently broke someone's elbow, he'd "do" yours. He also told us we could feel free to sue him if we got injured in class, but that we'd never make it to the trial date.

Another time a green or purple belt got a Kyokuninjakan tattoo (the symbol is an 8 point star). But later that guy left the system, and Tony told him to cover that tattoo with another tattoo, or he'd personally "remove" it. Needless to say, the guy did as he was told.

I notice you have addressed this in your post:

However, as a warning to each new beginning class, he gave his solemn word (never broken) that to protect each of them from another’s individual carelessness or stupidity, he would retaliate immediately on the guilty party in part.

That is an extremely bad teaching system. If mutual respect is present then fear tactics like this should be highly unnecessary. If you are attempting to make yourself appear badass through statements like these, I can assure you that especially on this site it will do you much more harm than good.

Another quote from SomeInfo I found disturbing:

Just a word of warning, every black belt and above I knew in Kyokunijakan was in some way a sick evil bastard who enjoyed hurting people. (I mean that in a good way). But seriously, they were violent people.

There is also the issue of the man SomeInfo claimed to be your Sensei, a man whose name he originally did not recall but he has since agreed is Shigeru. Here is a post by another forum member attempting to ascertain this individual's identity:

The lineage sounds like Masatatsu Oyama's student, Shigeru Oyama, who founded World Oyama. There's a school near me that's descended from them (Mike Skinner's place, which had the only white guy in Fighting Black Kings). You can see the White Plains connection here: http://www.australiankyokushin.com/b.../s-oyama.shtml

Good explanation here, a few posts in:http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/j...ma-karate.html

Is this man the "Shigeru Sensei" we are talking about?

A story related to us by SomeInfo regarding this individual:

Here is one more story I remember, which probably referred to Shigeru. Tony said one time the NYPD wanted Shigeru to teach their cops some karate, so they had a special class that was mostly police. One of the cops was talking in the back row, while Shigeru was teaching. That did not go over very well. Shigeru pointed at him and said "you!" ... "we free fight." I guess his english was not very good yet (keep in mind Tony is Italian so it was hilarious hearing him doing an impression of broken english with a Japanese accent while telling this story).

The fight didn't last too long because Shigeru roundhouse kicked the guy in the jaw and he flew across the room knocked unconscious. My sensei said he was "bleeding like a stuck pig, I thought he would die." Some guys went to go check on him, but Shigeru said "No!" He laid there unconscious for the whole class, and everyone paid very very close attention and didn't talk out of turn no more.

Is this story also true? It sounds like an extremely excessive event, especially given that it apparently happened at a seminar of some sort.

You do of course hear stories like this; Royce Gracie introducing a purple belt to an open palmed slap for disrespect, for example. But this is on a whole other level, especially since it involved members of law enforcement.

Next are a series of comments by a single-post user here, Pat103051:

At the school, Tony was going for belt and had to go against hi Sensei. I remember it well like it was yesterday. Tony went the full length of the gymnasium, swinging and kicking full force and his Sensei was gently pushing his hands and feet away like they were nothing. I remember well that at the end of the gym, Tony's foot was pointed at his Sensei's head, but that he never made contact. The Sensei did strike twice at Tony's temple and touch his hair, however, upon talking to Tony the next day, all the students only saw one strike to the temple, not two. That's how fast his Sensei was.

No offence, but this sounds very much like a certain scene from "The Matrix."

Tony did the same thing when I knew him, only he used a machete, and he caught the guy with the machete by his wrists. I have a super 8 movie that I took where when Tony went to grab the wrist and block the machete, his hand slid down and caught the edge of the machete, drawing blood. Tony just shrugged this off and proceeded to the next thing, which was the ice breaking demo.

Can you also comment on this story? Sounds like some fairly intense training.

With this comment I assume you are talking about me:

There are already plenty of those around, like that last guy. And a lot of gutless little, did nothing punks with diarrhea of the mouth, that will say anything (cause I think I’m safe here on my computer and I think nobody can find me…as far as I know; Even someone who “specialized” in finding people ½ a world away), posting idiotic opinions about something they know absolutely nothing about, on this site. Nor does he give a “Rat’s Ass”! Who the hell wants one anyway? Even a rat only needs one (except on South Park)!

To be quite honest, I'd be more than willing to say anything I've said here in person. Bad teaching is bad teaching and terror tactics and intimidation are terror tactics and intimidation. This does not change no matter how many veiled threats you post.

This is of course my opinion, and so you may take it as you like. But I think you'll find in the shitstorm which is inevitable in this thread that it's probably the view of the majority of users here.

As for my "knowing absolutely nothing" about the topic at hand, I have never claimed to be any kind of supreme repository of fighting knowledge. However, the anecdotes posted by yourself and SomeInfo indicate that you appear to be a dangerous, violent and unsafe teacher.

And quite honestly, the most rapid way to never gain respect on the internet is to ask for it. The second most rapid way is to, in your first post, immediately respond to any criticism with "U GAIZ R GUTLESS PUNKS."


And I sincerely hope that this

cause I think I’m safe here on my computer and I think nobody can find me…as far as I know; Even someone who “specialized” in finding people ½ a world away

is not meant to be a threat, Tony. Because for someone who claims to be a nice and reasonable guy, you've leapt to this kind of behaviour awfully quickly.

If it isn't meant to be a threat, then it's a fantastic way for you to lose all credibility real fast. If it is, then I'm fairly sure you've not only lost credibility but could be facing legal ramifications (I'm no expert on this however) depending on who the threat was directed to.

If anyone ever was stupid enough to actually show up for class in a ninja suit and tabi the coroner would most likely zip up his body bag with him still wearing what’s left of it.

Another intimidation / fear tactic. This is a little ridiculous. As much as you claim you do not wish to be seen as a "badass," or indeed "any kind of ass," you are clearly showing that you are trying to be one and succeeding quite well in the other.

And speaking of “dips”, to all those “semantic experts”, again the word “ninja” is included in the name because of all the special training, guerilla warfare, deceptive and improvisational type tactics and general gist of the system, stemming from “Sensei’s own” training and experience. The real old “Ninja” were in fact guerilla fighters. If you can’t see or understand that, you are obviously just an opinionated “Armchair Warrior”. Just keep watching your stupid Chuck Norris and Van Damme movies.

You join this site with the username Shadow Sensei, run your mouth about "keyboard warriors" and "gutless punks" on a site renowned for its many highly experienced posters and philosophy of "putting up or shutting up" and expect to be taken seriously when you try to explain the presence of the term "ninja" in the name of your art?

Whichever way you look at it, it is somewhat ridiculous.

No drill sergeant, I’m better than you stuff. He says if you give respect you’ll get it from an intelligent person.

No offence Tony, but do you not find this somewhat hypocritical given the nature of your very first post on this site?

People beating on each other for a stupid trophy, the “entertainment” of others, money or worst of all “ego” makes him sick (that’s really “Barbaric”).

And yet you yourself have claimed to intimidate and threaten your own students, and encourage them to beat the crap out of each other with minimal protective gear.

Because he’s me.

I more or less guessed that after taking one look at your username and the first obvious usage of first-person-come-third :P


Welcome to Bullshido, Tony. I hope you've got as thick a skin online as you claim to in real life.





EDIT: At this point I'd like to ask that someone with more experience than me (both here on Bullshido and in terms of training) take over...after all, Tony clearly doesn't take this "do-nothing little punk" seriously :P

[SomeInfo]

Well it is a good thing that the standard for realistic self defense training is not defined by what inexperienced aussie kids consider "disturbing." Don't worry, you have nothing to fear from sensei unless you try to carjack him - he is merciful. But, there are probably at least 100 guys and gals who'd risk their lives for him, doubt you'll ever be able to say the same.

I stick by all my "stories." The 3-4th dan kicked in sparring by the other 3-4th dan was Sensei Kurt. The green belt (at the time) with the bloody nose was (now) Sensei George. And Sensei Tom already said he also heard the story of the cops too.

As for "sick evil bastards" that was semi sacrastic, and just a rephrasing of the idea/phrase on the website "if you HAVE to fight, don't be nice."

[BackFistMonkey]

I stick by all my "stories." The 3-4th dan kicked in sparring by the other 3-4th dan was Sensei Kurt.

You mean you stand behind this dribble ?

When the black belts fought one another, they almost tried to kill each other. In one incident two 3-4th degrees were fighting, one was 6-4 tall and he did a stepping back kick into the other guy, who was 6-2 and basically got bent around his foot in a "U" shape. Tony commented "I thought he was gonna die." Fortunately, the guy was very flexible and did not die, but anyone without a very flexible spine would have been ... injured bad.

I would not stand behind such horse **** , either you are full of **** or the school is a danger to it's students .

The rampant and obvious ignorance of the entire situation , as stated above , is unbelievable because it is so irresponsible and points to so many bad training methods and methodologies . .

[raylawley]

Well it is a good thing that the standard for realistic self defense training is not defined by what inexperienced aussie kids consider "disturbing."

You're right. It isn't. But it's also a good thing that the standards of training in the martial arts are there for everyone to see, even inexperienced aussie kids like myself.

Inexperienced though I may be, I am experienced enough to recognise dangerous training when I hear it.

And hard contact sparring with the gear you described is simply dangerous and has no benefits which could possibly match the downsides of injuring yourself in training.

I'm also experienced enough to recognise what a threat is. And I'm experienced enough to recognise the fact that if respect is there, you don't need bullshit fear tactics like the ones you're describing.

You say your gym is open to everyone, not just wannabe tough guys. Yet you litter your crap posts with stories which would appeal ONLY to such people. You go way overboard in an attempt to make your training sound badass.

But, there are probably at least 100 guys and gals who'd risk their lives for him, doubt you'll ever be able to say the same.

Look how many people were willing to risk their lives for David Koresh. I don't see that as a valid argument at all.

[raylawley]

Well, this certainly died quickly...I was kind of hoping for some kind of response from Tony.

[ShadowSensei]

From the Shadow Sensei
It’s amazing how brave one can talk or rather print from the gutless anonymity of a nameless computer screen. I have absolutely no doubt that it comes from those who have done nothing but sew more stupid patches on their gi’s and sat bravely insulting and criticizing those who have. Too bad you’re not even intelligent enough to be ashamed of yourself. I will not dignify anymore immature, whining, prissy little gutless fools with any further exchange of words. People used my name and the name of my system without my knowledge or consent. I didn’t want them to. They really had no right to, but I forgive this because I believe they meant no harm to either. I personally tried to correct distorted facts and misconceptions about both. Obviously this was not enough for the real “Bullshido Artists”. We’re not interested in some sphincters opinion. So you can go on and on with your keyboards and feel like big brave men in your own little minds.
The way we train in Kyokuninjakan is not for everyone; it’s for us, by choice. No one has ever been forced to stay in our schools. On the contrary, we’ve had to force many people to leave for various reasons. They all came by choice looking to train in the most realistic way safely possible. Taught by experience and not just handed down inexperienced imagination or dojo conjecture. We seek realistic practicality, not sport or big business. This will be my final entry and hopefully that of my present and
Ex-students.
However, before I go, I will ask one simple rhetorical question of those reading my final response. I’ve asked it many times of many students; the Situation: “The person you love most is helpless, alone and cornered by a group of “No goods” in an alley with no way out. With no help, they absolutely will be raped and killed. Who would you rather have standing between your loved one and the slime balls? The brave computer warrior who has always trained worrying that he might get a booboo, or the meanest, most brutal, merciless, real life, experienced son-of-a-bitch you can find? I already know the answer. It’s always the same. (Watch out who you “Fuckwit”, sphincter)!
SSTZ Ousss! And like that!!!.................................................. .....He’s gone………..

[Goju - Joe]

My love ones are in danger from a group of no goodniks all that stands between them is

a)
Computer nerd or

b) delusional ninja Larper..

hmmm...


I would go with delusional Ninja Larper as I feel the nogoodnicks would be so occupied stomping him into a quivering pile of liquid larp my loved ones could get away


NINJAAAAA FTW!!!!!!!

[Neo Sigma]

The brave computer warrior who has always trained worrying that he might get a booboo, or the meanest, most brutal, merciless, real life, experienced son-of-a-bitch you can find? I already know the answer. It’s always the same. (Watch out who you “Fuckwit”, sphincter)!
SSTZ Ousss! And like that!!!.................................................. .....He’s gone………..

I think I'll go with the guy who knows the meaning of the words "train smart" and doesn't think getting seriously injured in class is a mark of pride.

Also, you're not Keyser Soze. People were actually afraid of him.

[patfromlogan]

As a Kajukenbo student, and a Kyokushin bb, this reminds me of Sijo Emperado's moto: "Class isn't over until there is blood on the floor." That isn't the type of training that many want, but I'd sure want his people covering my back.

I didn't really think it was necessary for me to wonder if my bones were going to get crushed or break when Prof "Luna" Emperado arm barred my elbow across his hip while kneeling on my temple, but I gotta admit, you train like that and you are going to be a fighter.