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  1. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    10,587

    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 3:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HEY Savatuers do not train in BOUTIQUES we train in Salles!!!!! (That least that is what I keep telling myself so I feel manily!)

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  2. Royal Dragon is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2002
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:12pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Self defense in it's most basic sens can be taught in a main stream class. Will they be able to fight a professional San Shou fighter? No, but I'm sure most MMA's can't hold thier own against a professional San Shou fighter either.

    I can teach however, a solid basic self defense system that will work against your average encounter. I just place an emphasis on escape and simple grose motor reflex types of techniques that will be sure to come up under stress. Basic cover and boxer's guard with some counter attacks and falling techniques.

    If they want to dedicate themselves further and really train, I can do that also. That's why I will offer full contact traditional Kung Fu training to those who wish it. It's the same curriculem, only taught with harder more realistic manor that is almost garenteed to drive the average mainstream student out the door and to the local Karate school where they will be taught stuff that will get them seriously hurt in a real fight for sure.

    Those types are going to shell out the $$ for training anyway, why should I NOT take thier money? It's not like they will dedicate themselves to training hard enough to get any real skill anyway. I say it's better "I" get their money then Joe Karate down the street.
  3. PeedeeShaolin is offline
    PeedeeShaolin's Avatar

    Co-Founder, Retired Admin

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    Jun 2002
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    New York
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with Choke. We have to be mature enough to understand that if you are running a martial arts school than it is a BUSINESS. You must know how to run it properly. Who here wants to sign up for classes and have your instructor go bankrupt after 3 months af training?

    A professionally run academy means that you will have a stable place to train. It also means that teaching can be your instructors full time job and he will have more time to dedicate to YOU as a result. Im going to write an article on this because alot of people are not clear as to what a McDojo is.

    "Migo is such a nerdy, panzy ass, ****** mutherfukker." -Every member of the ADCC Forum(at one time or another).
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  4. SifuAbel is offline
    SifuAbel's Avatar

    Hole in one.

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    Florida
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm with RD and I choke. Mr. Miyagi doesn't exist. What "good" school that you know of doesn't pay a rent every month or trains for free? McDojo isn't about making good money, ITS ABOUT BAD MARTIAL ARTS FOR GOOD MONEY. It about the extreme of factory MA. RD is right on the money. This group here, for example, does not represent the majority of the MA population. Most of you want to fight Vitor, maybe. 80% of MA people want to use martial arts as a keep fit. The actual hardcore fighting group is very small. Most CAN'T get to a physical level to do cage fighting. They actually have a life they want to live. Think about it, most hardcore fighters have a very short shelflife.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    Give to Haiti relief. text "haiti' to 90999
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TeacherMonkey?feature=mhee
  5. Dibble is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:45pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree and understand that martial arts is a business. But unlike your local pastry stand, bad MA can get a customer very hurt and so I think a certain level of accountability is in order.

    Sure, I also agree that the staple for most MA schoos are the many people train to stay/get in shape. Separate the classes that check the "getting in shape" box on their applications as their primary goal, from the people who check "Self defense."

    For the Stay in Shape group, how about calling their classes "Cardio kickboxing", "Sport Tai Chi" or something else that accurately describes its true purpose and does not foster false confidence in little or nonexistent fighting ability.
  6. Michael

    Guest

    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 6:26pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the website, I joined:
    This site is designed to help martial arts instructors run their business. Mcdojo comes when you're willing to give in to the money aspect and just become a black belt factory and bs your students into believing they are learning anything of substance. This is a resource page that does help the typical Mcdojo but definitely helps legit instructors stay opened.
  7. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
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    19,098

    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 6:41pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I posted that at 2AM last night when I was already peeved that the McDonald's corporation had taken exception to our previous logo. (Yep, I'm not joking.)

    Anyway, I do understand that anyone should want to be successful, and that someone running a Dojo/School/Gym would love to see their investment take off.

    It's not this that I object to, it's the idea of using martial arts as a tool to get rich. And when I first saw this magazine, that's exactly how it struck me.

    So I was probably a bit overzealous when I started this thread. I'll concede that point.

    But I will not relent when it comes to the fact that a true martial artist will put his art first, and his desires for financial gain through his teaching, second, if not third behind his students.

    I am disgusted by the way the magazine portrays the Martial Arts as an "Industry" selling a product. The people that see the martial arts as such are more likely to operate their schools in bad faith.

    I do not feel that anyone should actively seek wealth through teaching their style. By doing so, it would be too easy to shift your priorities from the art, to the money. If you happen to have success in the Martial Arts, it should be for no other reason than what you teach is effective in achieving its goals whether they be fitness, confidence, safety, community, or lethality. It should have nothing to do with your marketing campaign, your school uniforms, your karate baby-sitting program, or anything else.

    These things cheapen the spirit of what the Martial Arts are all about.

    As far as I'm concerned, MAsuccess.com toes the line between helping, and possibly hurting the MA community. We owe it to ourselves to keep an objective vigilance when it comes to them and their impact on the martial arts.
  8. Dibble is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 7:10pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Forgot to add: "And *don't* use the belt ranking system for the
    Cardi/Sports people. Leave that for the 'Self Defense' group who want real martial arts training."

    I agree and understand that martial arts is a business. But unlike your local pastry stand, bad MA can get a customer very hurt and so I think a certain level of accountability is in order.

    Sure, I also agree that the staple for most MA schoos are the many people train to stay/get in shape. Separate the classes that check the "getting in shape" box on their applications as their primary goal, from the people who check "Self defense."

    For the Stay in Shape group, how about calling their classes "Cardio kickboxing", "Sport Tai Chi" or something else that accurately describes its true purpose and does not foster false confidence in little or nonexistent fighting ability.
  9. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
    Roidie McDouchebag's Avatar

    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    May 2002
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    Kamloops, BC
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    9,419

    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 10:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My impression of this magazine is that it helps MA instructors (who have little or no idea how to deal with money) to figure out how much money to spend, when, how big a school they need for how many students, where they should locate themselves to maximize the amount of customers (a garage in the industrial district might NOT be the best, most visible location). However I do understand why Phrost feels the way he does, it can help Mcdojo's rip people off as much as it can help good guys break even.

    There are two kinds of schools, those focused on money and those focused on teaching. If you're focused on money you can still go bankrupt and if you're focused on teaching you can still make plenty of money but the difference comes in what you care about, if you only care about money, you don't belong in MA.
  10. Royal Dragon is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2002 12:03am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Frosty,

    "But I will not relent when it comes to the fact that a true martial artist will put his art first, and his desires for financial gain through his teaching, second, if not third behind his students."

    Reply]
    See, your first problem is a total lack of undestanding of the situation. I'll explain:

    Lets ay we have your true to the art, not concerned about $$ pureist, right? Lets look at how much he really contributes to the martial arts world.

    On any given day, he wakes up, eats breakfast and rushes off to work 8-9 hours, then comes home shovels some food in his mouth and goes off to teach a student or two in his basement or a park or something. He has what, at best a half dozen students? He's busy teaching them, so he can't really concentraight on his own workout (not to mention he is too wiped out from working too hard all day to really train right anyway). So his skills rapidly diminish, or remain sub standard, and when that happens he loses his 6-8 students. His end contrabution to the martial arts becomes minimal. Don't be fooled, going it with few resaouces is dam near impossible.

    Now, take that SAME guy and give him a healthy, profitable school and you get someone who can spend a good 3-4 hours a day doing is own training, and then spar with his seniors at the night class. PLUS he is exposing hundreds of people to the arts through out the year and has the $$ to advertise and market his school which causes his core group of hardcore guys to grow and grow. Not to mention all the people getting strong and healthy from his Kardio Kix program and his mainstream recreational martial arts program. PLUS the fact that he is providing employment for his instructors under him as well. Often those who work for a school owner become his training partners during the day, so now you have a few more people with an oppertunity to develop top notch skills who otherwise would not be able to.

    An don't forget the benifits from a sound Kid's program. He's doing a comunity service by running after school programs that build health, disciplin, confidance and much more for another 50-100 Kids every week.

    In the end the professional school owner has generated MORE quality martial arts and contributed far, far, far more than the guy who is the richeous, moral "Purist" and does not feel it is right to go for the big $$ And or professional Martial artist is making a very comfortable living to boot.

    I don't see justifacation for your disgust for the professional,large scale school owner.

    I tell you what Frosty, I guarentee that if I get my school off the ground, "I" will have ten times better Kung Fu in ten years than you will. Why?, I'll tell you, because "I" wll have the time,opertunity and the MEANS to really persue my art full tilt, and you will still just be a working shlub shooting your mouth off at McDojo.com.
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