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  1. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 11:39am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This guy seems to be credible, until you get towards the end and he starts talking about how homeopathy is showing promise.....
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  2. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 12:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 1:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    "real acupuncture was no better than needles placed at non-acupuncture points on the body, the Journal of the American Medical Association reports"

    Wow, I'm not surprised at all.
    You shouldn't be, considering this is what I wrote in a post a couple months ago. But the bottom line is that sticking needles in people works to relieve pain. To which you responded back then "One study does not constitute a statement that it works!"

    By the way, I read a summary of a study a few weeks ago where they poked people with fake needles (like miniature theater daggers) - they don't puncture the skin, but the patient can't feel the difference - and the study reportedly found a difference in some brain response between the people who were actually needled and those who got "placebo" needles. So there may be something beyond the placebo effect going on.

    Chi still doesn't exist, though.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  4. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 1:58pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, in effect, it can be scientifically concluded that needling people does have an effect, but acupuncture has yet to show any results.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  5. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 2:11pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    So, in effect, it can be scientifically concluded that needling people does have an effect, but acupuncture has yet to show any results.
    That's a funny way to state it, given that "acupuncture" is a subset of "needling people". What still needs to be shows AFAIK is that traditional acupuncture is significantly more effective than poking people at random spots, and if so, why.

    There might be studies arguing the first point. Wouldn't completely surprise me - it's conceivable that needling spots that have, e.g., particularly many nerves, is more effective, and that traditional acupuncture would converge on some of them through trial and error. Who knows.

    Chi still doesn't exist, though.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  6. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 3:13pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    so acupuncture doesn't work for the reason i think it works? here is an overview by the man that discovered the acupuncture-endorphin theory of acupuncture. it is a little dated and he has done more research since then, but it gives an idea of how acupuncture works.

    http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/ac...meranzart.html

    i realize we never really got to discuss acupuncture like i had wished, but that isn't an excuse for your ignorant assumption of what acupuncturists think.
    Quoting Pomeranz:

    "Pomeranz: They (the chinese) have a whole different cosmology and to them it works [within their framework]. You can explain things many different ways. The question is, in the Popperian sense, is it falsifiable? If you explain what happened to you because god in her wisdom did something, how are you going to test that? When you try to falsify it, you're stuck. The traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) paradigm is energetic. Chi energy is flowing through meridians. This may be one possible explanation of a thousand things that are going on. But so far, I've looked at the evidence for chi. There's nothing."

    You (again) made my point.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  7. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 3:28pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's a funny way to state it, given that "acupuncture" is a subset of "needling people".
    Yes, but it doesn't take hours and hours of training to stick a needle into a person. Acupuncturist have a lot to lose of it's found out that needling itself is sufficient to get the benefits that acupuncturists claim and not the actual placement.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  8. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 3:29pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    Considering how sharp scalpels are, I wouldn't doubt that a person could be distracted not to feel the pain until the natural endorphins kick in from the actual cut itself. Some people could go into a mild state of shock as well. Some people also have a really, really high tolerance for pain as well.

    Stage hypnotists can get people to endure all sorts of pain as well.
    No way.

    What I'm talking about is successful surgery for things like apendectomy. Placebo plus endorphins will not blot out that pain, will not keep you from going into severe shock, will not keep you from dying due to said shock.

    They do this all the time in China. It apparently allows them to use MUCH less chemical anathesia.

    Bad reactions to anesthetics kill thousands in the US every year. THere is something for us to learn here.

    The point about hypnosis is a good one - it is very possible that modalities like acupuncture work due to currently unexplained properties of the nervous system.

    Which indicates, to me, that we should investigate these things from a ego-free perspective.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  9. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 3:31pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    I'm not in this to destroy your career, but to help educate people to the fact that acupuncture has no basis in science and is equivalent to medical bullshido.

    Acupuncture is medshido.
    Too much of a dogmatic agenda often leads to legislation banning practice and research. When you add moneyed interests to the picture it gets worse. He is justified in his concern.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  10. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 4:23pm


     Style: Mostly weights now...

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    Quoting Pomeranz:

    "Pomeranz: They (the chinese) have a whole different cosmology and to them it works [within their framework]. You can explain things many different ways. The question is, in the Popperian sense, is it falsifiable? If you explain what happened to you because god in her wisdom did something, how are you going to test that? When you try to falsify it, you're stuck. The traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) paradigm is energetic. Chi energy is flowing through meridians. This may be one possible explanation of a thousand things that are going on. But so far, I've looked at the evidence for chi. There's nothing."

    You (again) made my point.

    Tomas

    How? Apparently in your haste to compare acupuncturists to telemarketers, you made an assumption that all acupuncturists trained in this country only believe in qi.

    Wrong. Here is the ugly copy-and-paste of the curriculum at Bastyr, where I greaduated from. Note the year of anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, biochem, western clinical science, and biophysics/electroacupuncture. The last one is of much importance because it covers the research of Pomeranz and others.

    SAOM Year I
    Quarter Cat. No. Course Title Credits Lec. L/C Total
    Fall BC3106 Biochemistry Overview 11 4 4 0 44
    BC3113 Living Anatomy 3 3 0 33
    BC3117 Anatomy & Physiology 11 2 2 0 22
    OM4106 Meridians & Points 1 4 4 0 44
    OM4118 TCM Fundamentals 4 4 0 44
    OM4315 TCM Bodywork: Tui Na 1 0 2 22
    OM4406 Qi Gong 1 1 0 2 22
    OM4800 Clinic Entry 2 2 0 22

    Quarterly Total:
    21 19 4 253
    Winter BC3107 Biochemistry Overview 21 4 4 0 44
    BC3118 Anatomy & Physiology 2 Lec/Lab 1 4 3 2 55
    OM4107 Meridians & Points 2 4 4 0 44
    OM4211 TCM Diagnosis 1 3 3 0 33
    OM4221 TCM Pathology 1 3 3 0 33
    OM4411 TCM Techniques 1 2 2 0 22
    OM4803 Clinic Observation 1 2 0 4 44
    OM5442 Tai Chi 1 0 2 22

    Quarterly Total:
    23 19 8 297
    Spring BC3119 Anatomy & Physiology 3 Lec//Lab1 4 3 2 55
    BC4105 Intro to Western Pathology 3 3 0 33
    OM4108 Meridians & Points 3 4 4 0 44
    OM4213 TCM Diagnosis 2 4 3 2 55
    OM4222 TCM Pathology 2 3 3 0 33
    OM4804 Clinic Observation 2 2 0 4 44
    OM5430 TCM Techniques 2 2 2 0 22

    Quarterly Total:
    21 17 8 275
    Summer BO3101 Introduction to Botany 3 2 2 44
    CH6421 Chinese Materia Medica 1 4 4 0 44
    CH6831 CHM Dispensary 13 2 0 4 44

    Quarterly Total:
    9 6 6 132
    MSAOM Year II
    Quarter Cat. No. Course Title Credits Lec. L/C Total
    Fall BC4121 Microbiology (AOM)1 3 2 2 44
    CH5411 Chinese Materia Medica 2 4 4 0 44
    OM5131 Medical Chinese 1 3 3 0 33
    OM5321 Survey Of Western Clinical Sciences 1 3 3 0 33
    OM5414 Acupuncture Therapeutics 1 2 2 0 22
    OM5415 Acupuncture Therapeutics 2 2 2 0 22
    OM5436 TCM Techniques 3 2 2 0 22
    OM5803 Clinic Observation 3 2 0 4 44

    Quarterly Total:
    21 18 6 264
    Winter BC4131 Pharmacology Overview 4 4 0 44
    CH6422 Chinese Materia Medica 3 4 4 0 44
    OM5132 Medical Chinese 2 3 3 0 33
    OM5322 Survey of Western Clinical Sciences 2 3 3 0 33
    OM5416 Acupuncture Therapeutics 3 2 2 0 22
    OM5417 Acupuncture Therapeutics 4 2 2 0 22
    OM5437 TCM Techniques 4 2 2 0 22
    OM5438 TCM Techniques Lab 1 0 2 22
    OM5804 Clinic Observation 4 2 0 4 44

    Quarterly Total:
    23 20 6 286
    Spring CH6431 CHM Herbal Formulations 1 4 4 0 44
    OM5133 Medical Chinese 3 3 3 0 33
    OM5300 Auricular Therapy 2 2 0 22
    OM5302 Public Health Issues in AOM 2 2 0 22
    OM5323 Survey of Western Clinical Sciences 3 2 2 0 22
    OM5418 Acupuncture Therapeutics 5 2 2 0 22
    OM5419 Acupuncture Therapeutics 6 2 2 0 22
    OM6305 Survey of Biophysics/ Electroacupuncture 2 2 0 22
    OM5805-6 Clinic Internship 1-23 4 0 8 88

    Quarterly Total:
    23 19 8 297
    Summer OM5807-10 Clinic Internship 3-6 8 0 16 176
    CH6432 CHM Herbal Formulations 2 4 4 0 44
    PS5204 Counseling 3 3 0 33
    PS6100 Motivational Interviewing 2 2 0 22

    Quarterly Total:
    17 9 16 275
    MSAOM Year III
    Quarter Cat. No. Course Title Credits Lec. L/C Total
    Fall CH6408 Chinese Herbal Therapeutics 1 4 4 0 44
    OM5405 TCM Whole Foods Nutrition 2 2 0 22
    OM6110 TCM Medical Classics 2 2 0 22
    OM6417 Acupuncture Therapeutics 7 2 2 0 22
    OM6801-3 Clinic Internship 7-9 6 0 12 132
    TR6105 Nutrition & Dietary Systems 1 3 3 0 33

    Quarterly Total:
    19 13 12 275
    Eligible to sit for the NCCAOM exam2
    Winter BC6100 Pharmacology of CHM & Drug Interactions 2 2 0 22
    CH6408 Chinese Herbal Therapeutics 2 4 4 0 44
    CH6803 Chinese Herbal Medicine Clinic 1 2 0 4 44
    CH6804 Chinese Herbal Medicine Clinic 2 2 0 4 44
    OM4101 History of Medicine 2 2 0 22
    OM6310 Case Review 2 2 0 22
    OM6418 Acupuncture Therapeutics 8 2 2 0 22
    OM6804-6 AOM Clinic Internship 10-12 6 0 12 132

    Quarterly Total:
    22 12 20 352
    Spring BC5140 Research Methods in AOM 3 3 0 33
    CH6409 Chinese Herbal Therapeutics 3 4 4 0 44
    CH6832 CHM Dispensory 23 2 0 4 44
    CH6805-6 Chinese Herbal Medicine Clinic 3-4 4 0 8 88
    OM5836 Internship Interim Clinic4 1.5 0 3.3 36
    OM6105 Jurisprudence/Ethics 1 1 0 11
    OM6104 Practice Management 3 3 0 33
    OM6807-8 Clinic Internship 13-14 4 0 8 88

    Quarterly Total:
    22.5 11 23.3 377
    Summer CH6105 Chinese Herb Preparations5 1 0 2 22
    CH6809-10 Chinese Herbal Medicine Clinic 5-6 4 0 8 88
    OM6809 Clinical Internship 15 2 0 4 44
    Quarterly Totals 10 4 12 176
    MSAOM Year IV
    Quarter Cat. No. Course Title Credits Lec. L/C Total
    Fall CH6410 Chinese Herb Preparattions5 4 4 0 44
    CH6809-10 Chinese Herbal Medicine Clinic 7-8 4 0 8 88
    OM6809 Clinical Internship 16 2 0 4 44

    Quarterly Total:
    7 0 14 154
    Total Requirements: MSAOM
    Credits Lec. L/C Total
    Total Core Course Credits and Hours 153 147 12 1749
    Total Prerequisites/Corequisites 24 20 8 308
    Total Elective Credits and Hours 6 6 0 66
    Clinic Credits and Hours 61.5 0 123.3 1356
    Total Requirements
    244.5 173 143.3 3479





    It is sad that the only thing you took from that article is that acupuncturists think qi is the explanation for how acupuncture works. Perhaps if you had asked me before, you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous assumption.

    BTW, in China, none of the doctors that I spoke with or trained with believed that TCM was exclusive from neuroanatomical acupuncture; they were just as interested in this kind of research as I am.
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