Thread: Fake acupuncture works too!
5/31/2005 12:56am, #161
5/31/2005 1:10am, #162And how does this make acupuncture any more credible?
Also, a "few" examples...
That's how your logic works. No matter how many examples are given it will always be "a few exceptions" unless it squares up with your own superstitious beliefs about medicine in which case you need FAR less evidence. In addition to the couple I came up with on google punchy posted a bunch of other stuff you seem to have missed:
Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
...clinicians have become accustomed to relying on non-evidence-based toolsto make decisions.
... Barriers to adopting evidence-based best practice remain, including physician skepticism , patient expectations, fear of legal action, and distorted reimbursement systems. Additionally, despite enormous research efforts there remains a lack of high-quality evidence to guide care for many clinical situations.
Conclusion: A large proportion of medical decisions are made without scientific justification either due to a lack of evidence, or an inability of medical professionals to implement scientific findings due to legal constraints or skepticism in the findings as it contradicts what they've always done... it is to address this very reason that EBM was invented.
Apparently the fact that the particular site is selling something invalidates all of these sources:
1. Einhorn, J., Nitrogen mustard: the origin of chemotherapy for cancer, Int. J. Radiat. Oncol. Biol. Phys., 1985, 11(7), 1375-1378.
2. Goodman, L. S.; Wintrobe, M. M.; Dameshek, W.; Goodman, M. J.; Gilman, A.; McLennan, M. T., Landmark article Sept. 21, 1946: Nitrogen mustard therapy. Use of methyl-bis(beta-chloroethyl)amine hydrochloride and tris(beta-chloroethyl)amine hydrochloride for Hodgkin's disease, lymphosarcoma, leukemia and certain allied and miscellaneous disorders. J. Am. Med. Assoc., 1984, 251(17), 2255-2261.
3. Delayed Administration of Sodium Thiosulfate in Animal Models Reduces Platinum Ototoxicity without Reduction of Antitumor Activity
Leslie L. Muldoon, Michael A. Pagel, Robert A. Kroll, Robert E. Brummett, Nancy D. Doolittle, Eleanor G. Zuhowski, Merrill J. Egorin and Edward A. Neuwelt
4. In an especially dramatic table, Dr. Abel displays the results of chemotherapy in patients with various types of cancers, as the improvement of survival rates, compared to untreated patients. This table shows:
a In colorectal cancer: no evidence survival is improved.5. Sankila, Risto, et al. "Risk of cancer among offspring of childhood cancer survivors." New England Journal of Medicine 338, no. 19 (1998): 1339-44.
b.Gastric cancer: no clear evidence.
c.Pancreatic cancer: Study completely negative. Longer survival in control (untreated) group.[emphasis mine:rsc]
d.Bladder: no clinical trial done.
e.Breast cancer: No direct evidence that chemotherapy prolongs survival; its use is "ethically questionable." (That is particularly newsworthy, since all breast cancer patients, before or after surgery, are given chemotherapy drugs.)
f.Ovarian cancer: no direct evidence.
g.Cervix and uterus: No improved survival.
h. Head and neck: no survival benefit but occasional shrinkage of tumours
6.Sklar, C.A. "Growth and neuroendocrine dysfunction following therapy for childhood cancer." Pediatric Clinics of North America 44 (1997): 489-503.
7. Wallace, W.H., and C.J. Kelnar. "Late effects of antineoplastic therapy in childhood on growth and endocrine function." Drug Safety 15, no. 5 (Nov 1996): 325-32.
8. Sklar, C.A. "Growth and neuroendocrine dysfunction following therapy for childhood cancer." Pediatric Clinics of North America 44 (1997): 489-503.
9. Wallace, W.H., and C.J. Kelnar. "Late effects of antineoplastic therapy in childhood on growth and endocrine function." Drug Safety 15, no. 5 (Nov 1996): 325-32.
10. Goldiner, P.L., and O. Schweizer. "The hazards of anesthesia and surgery in bleomycin-treated patients." Seminars in Oncology 6, no. 1 (Mar 1979): 121-4.
11. Hulbert, J.C., J.E. Grossman, and K.B. Cummings. "Risk factors of anesthesia and surgery in bleomycin-treated patients." Journal of Urology 130, no. 1 (Jul 1983): 163-4.
12. Miller, R.W., et al. "Pulmonary function abnormalities in long-term survivors of childhood cancer." Medical Pediatric Oncology 14, no. 4 (1986): 202-7.
13. Farrell, G.C. "Drug-induced hepatic injury." Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology 12, no. 9-10 (Oct 1997): S242-50.
14. Aisenberg, J., et al. "Bone mineral density in young adult survivors of childhood cancer." Journal of Pediatrics Hematology/Oncology 20, no. 3 (May-Jun 1998): 241-5.
15. Arikoski, P., et al. "Reduced bone mineral density in long-term survivors of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia." Journal of Pediatrics Hematology/Oncology 20, no. 3 (May 1998): 234-240.
16. Halton, J.M., et al. "Altered mineral metabolism and bone mass in children during treatment for acute lymphoblastic leukemia." Journal of Bone Mineral Research 11, no. 11 (Nov 1996): 1774-83.
17. Hanif, I., H. Mahmoud, and C.H. Pui. "Avascular femoral head necrosis in pediatric cancer patients." Medical Pediatric Oncology 21, no. 9 (1993): 655-60.
18. Henderson, R.C., C.D. Madsen, C. Davis, and S.H. Gold. "Bone density in survivors of childhood malignancies." Journal of Pediatrics Hematology/Oncology 18, no. 4 (Nov 1996): 367-71.
19. Henderson, R.C., et al. "Longitudinal evaluation of bone mineral density in children receiving chemotherapy." Journal of Pediatrics Hematology/Oncology 20, no. 4 (Jul-Aug 1998): 322-6.
20. Hesseling, P.B., et al. "Bone mineral density in long-term survivors of childhood cancer." International Journal of Cancer 11 Supplement (1998): 44-7.
21. Hoorweg-Nijman, J.J., et al. "Bone mineral density and markers of bone turnover in young adult survivors of childhood lymphoblastic leukaemia." Clinical Endocrinology (Oxford) 50, no. 2 (Feb 1999): 237-44.
22. Muller, H.L., M. Klinkhammer-Schalke, and J. Kuhl. "Final height and weight of long-term survivors of childhood malignancies." Experimental and Clinical Endocrinology and Diabetes 106, no. 2 (1998): 135-9.
23. Talvensaari, K., and M. Knip. "Childhood cancer and later development of the metabolic syndrome." Annals of Medicine 29, no. 5 (Oct 1997): 353-5.
24. Talvensaari, K., et al. "Clinical characteristics and factors affecting growth in long-term survivors of cancer." Medical Pediatric Oncology 26, no. 3 (Mar 1996): 166-72.
25. Mauch, P.M., et al. "Second malignancies after treatment for laparotomy staged IA-IIIB Hodgkin's disease: a long-term analysis of risk factors and outcome." Blood 87, no. 9 (1 May 1996): 3625-32.
26. Neglia, J.P., et al. "Second neoplasms after acute lymphoblastic leukemia in childhood." New England Journal of Medicine 325, no. 19 (7 Nov 1991): 1330-6.
27. Nicholson, H.S., et al. "Late effects of therapy in adult survivors of osteosarcoma and Ewing's sarcoma." Medical Pediatric Oncology 20, no. 1 (1992): 6-12.
28. Novakovic, B., et al. "Late effects of therapy in survivors of Ewing's sarcoma family tumors." Pediatric Hematology/Oncology 19, no. 3 (May-June 1997): 220-5.
29. Nyandoto, P., T. Muhonen, and H. Joensuu. "Second cancer among long-term survivors from Hodgkin's disease." International Journal of Radiation Oncology and Biological Physics 42, no. 2 (1 Sept 1998): 373-8.
30. Nygaard, R., et al. "Second malignant neoplasms in patients treated for childhood leukemia. a population-based m cohort study from the Nordic countries, The Nordic Society of Pediatric Oncology and Hematology (NOPHO)." Acta Pediatrics Scandinavia 80, no. 12 (Dec 1991): 1220-8.
31. Pratt, C.B.B., et al. "Second malignant neoplasms occurring in survivors of osteosarcoma." Cancer 80, no. 5 (1 Sept 1997): 960-5.
32. Rich, D.C., et al. "Second malignant neoplasms in children after treatment of soft tissue sarcoma." Journal of Pediatrics Surgery 32, no. 2 (Feb 1997): 369-72.
33. Robison, L.L. "Survivors of childhood cancer and risk of a second tumor." Journal of the National Cancer Institute 85, no. 14 (21 Jul 1993): 1102-3.
34. Sankila, R., et al. "Risk of subsequent malignant neoplasms among 1,641 Hodgkin's disease patients diagnosed in childhood and adolescence: a population-based cohort study in the five Nordic countries. Association of the Nordic Cancer Registries and the Nordic Society of Pediatric Hematology and Oncology." Journal of Clinical Oncology 14, no. 5 (May 1996): 1442-6.
35. Scaradavou, A. "Second malignant neoplasms in long-term survivors of childhood rhabdomyosarcoma." Cancer 76, no. 10 (15 Nov 1995): 1860-7.
36. Witherspoon, R.P., H.J. Deeg, and R. Storb. "Secondary malignancies after marrow transplantation for leukemia or aplastic anemia." Transplantation Science 4, no. 1 (Sept 1994): 33-41.
37. Wolden, S.L., et al. "Second cancers following pediatric Hodgkin's disease." Journal of Clinical Oncology 16, no. 2 (Feb 1998): 536-44.
38. Wong, F.L., et al. "Secondary brain tumors in children treated for acute lymphoblastic leukemia at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital." Journal of Clinical Oncology 16, no. 12 (Dec 1998): 3761-7.
39. Barakat, L.P., et al. "Families surviving childhood cancer: a comparison of posttraumatic stress symptoms with families of healthy children." Journal of Pediatric Psychology 22, no. 6 (1997): 843-59.
40. Gray, R.E. "Psychologic adaptation of survivors of childhood cancer." Cancer 70, no. 11 (Dec 1992): 2713-21.
41. Greenberg, H.S., et al. "Psychologic functioning in 8-16-year-old cancer survivors and their parents." Journal of Pediatrics 114, no. 3 (Mar 1989): 488-93.
42. Hollen, P.J., and W.L. Hobbie. "Risk taking and decision making of adolescent long-term survivors of cancer." Oncology Nursing Forum 17 (1994): 137-48.
43. Kazak, A.E., et al. "Posttraumatic stress, family functioning, and social support in survivors of childhood leukemia and their mothers and fathers." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 65 (1997): 120-9.
44. Kazak, A.E., et al. "Young adult cancer survivors and their parents: adjustment, learning problems, and gender." Journal of Family Psychology 8, no. 1 (1994): 74-84.
45. Lansky, S., et al. "Psychosocial consequences of cure." Cancer 58 (1986): 529-33.
46. Mulhern, R.K., et al. "Social competence and behavioral adjustment of children who are long-term survivors of cancer." Pediatrics 83 (1989): 18-25.
47. Stuber, M.L., et al. "Posttrauma symptoms in childhood leukemia survivors and their parents." Psychosomatics 37, no. 3 (May-Jun 1996): 254-61.
48. Zeltzer, L.K., et al. "Comparison of psychologic outcomes in adult survivors of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia versus sibling controls: A cooperative Children's Cancer Group and National Institutes of Health study." Journal of Clinical Oncology 15 (1997): 547-56.
49. The chemicals used for chemotherapy are scheduled by the government regulator (TGA) as Schedule 4 drugs (S4). The regulator has placed antibiotics into the same category. Interestingly, the mineral selenium, freely found in yeast and many other foods has now also been classed as a schedule 4 drug.
50 The key idea in orthomolecular medicine is that genetic factors are central not only to the physical characteristics of individuals, but also to their biochemical milieu. Biochemical pathways of the body have significant genetic variability in terms of transcriptional potential and individual enzyme concentrations, receptor-ligand affinities and protein transporter efficiency. Diseases such as atherosclerosis, cancer, schizophrenia or depression are associated with specific biochemical abnormalities which are either causal or aggravating factors of the illness. In the orthomolecular view, it is possible that the provision of vitamins, amino acids, trace elements or fatty acids in amounts sufficient to correct biochemical abnormalities will be therapeutic in preventing or treating such diseases.
Studies Relating to Chemotherapy
Knox RA. Response is slow to deadly mixups. Too little done to avert cancer drug errors. Boston Globe. June 26, 1995:29-33.
O'Donnell J. Hospital sued for not giving rescue agent. Hosp Pharm Rep. 1993;7:29.
Cohen M, Anderson R, Attilio RM, et al. Preventing medication errors in cancer chemotherapy. Am J Health Syst Pharm. 1996;53:737-746.
Koren G, Beatty K, Seto A, et al. The effects of impaired liver function on the elimination of antineoplastic agents. Ann Pharmacother. 1992;26:363-371.
Calvert AH, Vewell DR, Gumbrell LA, et al. Carboplatin dosage: prospective evaluation of a simple formula based on renal function. J Clin Oncol. 1989;7:1748-1756.
Kintzel P, Dorr RT. Anticancer drug renal toxicity and elimination: dosing guidelines for altered renal function. Cancer Treat Rev. 1995;21:33-64.
AHFS Drug Information. American Society of Health-System Pharmacists 1994-1998.
Ewer MS, Benjamin RS. Cardiotoxicity of chemotherapeutic drugs. In: Perry MC, ed. The Chemotherapy Source Book. 2nd ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins; 1996:652.
Ginsberg SJ, Comis RL. The pulmonary toxicity of antineoplastic agents. In: Perry MC, Yarbro JW, eds. Toxicity of Chemotherapy. Orlando, Fla: Grune and Stratton; 1984:227-268.
Patterson WP, Reams G. Renal and electrolyte abnormalities due to chemotherapy. In: Perry MC, ed. The Chemotherapy Source Book. 2nd ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins; 1996:730-734.
Grochow BL, Ames MM. A Clinician's Guide to Chemotherapy Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins; 1998:93-471.
DeVita VT, Hellman S, Rosenberg SA. Cancer: Principles & Practice of Oncology. 5th ed. Philadelphia: Lippincott-Raven Publishers; 1997:333-512.
Mitchelson F. Pharmacological agents affecting emesis: a review (part I). Drugs. 1992;43:295-315.
Mitchelson F. Pharmacological agents affecting emesis: a review (part II). Drugs. 1992;43:443-463.
Grunber SM, Hesketh PJ. Control of chemotherapy-induced emesis. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1790-1795.
Aapro MS. Review of experience with ondansetron and granisetron. Ann Oncol. 1993;4(suppl 3):S9-S14.
Navari RM, Kaplan HG, Gralla RJ, et al. Efficacy and safety of granisetron, a selective 5-hydroxytryptamine-3 receptor antagonist, in the prevention of nausea and vomiting induced by high-dose cisplatin. J Clin Oncol. 1994;12:2204-2210.
Italian Group for Antiemetic Research. Dexamethasone, granisetron, or both for the prevention of nausea and vomiting during chemotherapy for cancer. N Engl J Med. 1995;332:1-5.
Gralla RJ. Adverse effects of treatment. In: DeVita VT, Hellman S, Rosenberg SA, eds. Cancer: Principles & Practice of Oncology. 4th ed. Philadelphia: Lippincott-Raven Publishers; 1994:2338-2347.
American Society of Clinical Oncology. Recommendations for the use of hematopoietic colony-stimulating factors: evidence-based clinical practice guidelines. J Clin Oncol. 1994;12:2471-2508.
Rowinsky EK, Gilbert MR, McGuire WP, et al. Sequences of taxol and cisplatin. A phase 1 and pharmacologic study. J Clin Oncol. 1991;9:1692-1703.
Balmer CM. Combination chemotherapy. In: Finley RS, Balmer CM, Dozier N, et al, eds. Concepts in Oncology Therapeutics. A Self-Instructional Course. Bethesda, Md: American Society of Hospital Pharmacists; 1991:102.
Browman GP. Clinical application of the concept of methotrexate plus 5-FU sequence dependent synergy: how good is the evidence? Cancer Treat Rep. 1984;68:465-469.
Koh DW, Castro M. Pulmonary toxicity of chemotherapeutic drugs. In: Perry MC, ed. The Chemotherapy Source Book. 2nd ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins; 1996:674.
Ewer MS, Benjamin RS. Cardiotoxicity of chemotherapeutic drugs. In: Perry MC, ed. The Chemotherapy Source Book. 2nd ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins; 1996:654.
Lindley CM, Bernard S, Fields SM. Incidence and duration of chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting in the outpatient oncology population. J Clin Oncol. 1989;7:1142-1149.
Gralla RJ, Navari RM, Hesketh PJ, et al. Single-dose oral granisetron has equivalent antiemetic efficacy to intravenous ondansetron for highly emetogenic cisplatin-based chemotherapy. J Clin Oncol. 1998;16: 1568-1573.
Perez EA, Hesketh PJ, Sandbach J, et al. Comparison of single-dose oral granisetron versus intravenous ondansetron in the prevention of nausea and vomiting induced by moderately emetogenic chemotherapy: a multicenter, double-blind, randomized parallel study. J Clin Oncol. 1998;16:754-760.
Kris MG, Gralla RJ, Tyson LB, et al. Controlling delayed vomiting: double-blind, randomized trial comparing placebo, dexamethasone alone, and metoclopramide plus dexamethasone in patients receiving cisplatin. J Clin Oncol. 1989;7:108-114.
Singh SS, Cartmell A, Caldwell J. Efficacy and tolerance of low dose dexamethasone in combination with granisetron for prophylaxis of emesis with high dose cisplatin containing chemotherapy. Int Pharm Abstracts. 1998;35:2284.
Which again comes back to my point that certain "scientific" peoples beliefs are essentiall based on nothing more than gut instincts and superstition. Because they have already made up their mind a single piece of evidence supporting their intuitive view is weighed more heavily than numerous pieces of evidence to the contrary that happen to contradict their preconceived notions of the truth.
Scientist he ain't.
Last edited by Omar; 5/31/2005 1:14am at .
5/31/2005 5:40am, #163It wasn't meant to. It was meant to demonstrate your hypocricy. I am showing that your own opinions are based on the same kind of superstitious hunches you claim to be railing against.
Also, a "few" examples...
That's how your logic works. No matter how many examples are given it will always be "a few exceptions" unless it squares up with your own superstitious beliefs about medicine in which case you need FAR less evidence.
You are comparing witch doctors to neurosurgeons here. Acupuncture isn't even close to being based on science, not just acupuncturists, but the entire field. It's not hypocrisy for me to trust real medical science over mythology-based meds. In fact, it's because of evidence-based medicine that the average life-span of people is the greatest that it's ever been. Evidence-based meds produces real results that can be objectively measured. The same cannot be said of TCM.
Instead of this ad-hom tactic, why don't you produce evidence that acupuncture really works instead? Don't answer that, I already know the answer."Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
5/31/2005 5:53am, #164
So, will someone please meet up in real life and settle it with brass knuckles?
and get a video please. . .
5/31/2005 10:15am, #165
Originally Posted by Omar
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
Scientists (most) are honest, they list their failures because it makes them see new patterns. Something you guys still have to learn.
There's no sliver bullet, and treating cancer means killing human cells.
If you can target cancer cells and spare normal cells, you have a treatment.
But you have to settle for a trade: you kill some healthy cells in order to kill ALL the cancer cells. In some cancers targeting cancer cells is difficult so the strategy doesn't work.
I can't believe we have to discus this.
If you think you have a proof that cis-platin is generally inefficient, get the news crews, you've got a breakthrough in medicine.
And again, the question that looms over this whole thread:
How does this compare to the efficacy of acupuncture?
This reminds me of an old russian joke from the seventies:
An american tourist visits Moscow and gets a tour through the city. He's in a subway station, waiting for a train - the pride of russian technology. The tour guide proudly exclaims that there's a train stopping at this station exactly every two minutes, no more no less!!.
They wait for 15 minutes ...... no train.
The tour guide gets nervous.
Then he spouts out at the american tourist:
"ALLRIGHT ALLRIGHT ALLRIGHT BUT AT LEAST WE DON"T LYNCH BLACK PEOPLE HERE!!!!!
TomasCurrent stage of death: denial
5/31/2005 10:17am, #166
Originally Posted by MrMcFu
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
TomasCurrent stage of death: denial