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  1. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 5:26pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Fake acupuncture works too!

    "real acupuncture was no better than needles placed at non-acupuncture points on the body, the Journal of the American Medical Association reports"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4508597.stm

    Wow, I'm not surprised at all.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  2. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 8:09pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow. It is very sad that you are unable to read past the first paragraph, or unable to comprehend anything that you have read. In the past, I mentioned that in some studies, it was difficult to show that acupuncture worked better than sham acupuncture because there are several different mechanisms by which acupuncture works. But in other studies, acupuncture works better than sham acupuncture, and both work better than placebo. Perhaps you should go back and read my old posts.

    But let's look at this current article. I'll bold the parts that you should pay attention to...I know it is tempting to just look at the tagline of an article and get hot and bothered because it says something you "feel" to be right, but it is important to look at the substance of the article.



    "Fake acupuncture works just as well as the real thing in relieving migraines, scientists have found.

    In a study of more than 300 patients, both genuine and sham acupuncture reduced the intensity of headache compared with no treatment at all.

    But real acupuncture was no better than needles placed at non-acupuncture points on the body, the Journal of the American Medical Association reports.

    It goes against recent research showing acupuncture works in its own right.



    It has long been debated whether acupuncture works in a unique way or whether any benefits gained are merely down to a person's expectation that the treatment will work.

    The latter is called the placebo effect.

    To investigate this, Dr Klaus Linde and colleagues randomly assigned 302 people with migraines to one of three groups.

    One group received 12 sessions of genuine acupuncture over eight weeks.

    Another group received 12 similar sessions of acupuncture, except the needles administered were not placed in parts of the body thought to relieve migraine pain, hence any benefit would likely be placebo rather than real, according to the researchers.

    The third group received no treatment but were placed on a waiting list to see a migraine doctor.

    All of the patients kept diaries about their migraine symptoms.

    While the patients on the waiting list continued to have headaches just as often, the ones who received acupuncture - sham or real - had fewer headaches.

    The average number of days blighted by a headache went down from about five to two.


    This may be due to "non-specific physiological effects of needling" , to a powerful placebo effect or a combination of both", said the researchers.

    But Dr George Lewith, who recently published work suggesting acupuncture has an effect above and beyond placebo, said although the present study was well conducted, it did not truly test the placebo effect.

    "We do not know whether this sham acupuncture is active or not. To test for placebo effect you have to use an intervention that only raises a patient's expectations.

    "The authors note themselves that something else could have been going on as well."

    The British Acupuncture Council said that using pre-prescribed acupuncture points for all patients might have skewed the results.

    "Acupuncture treatment is different for each person. The formulaic treatment part of the study would be inappropriate for some patients. This would reduce the apparent effectiveness in the acupuncture group."


    The council said there was good evidence to suggest acupuncture was helpful for treating migraine.

    Ann Turner of the Migraine Action Association said: "Acupuncture may be a good treatment option for migraine sufferers to explore."

    More than one-in-10 people in the UK experience migraines, two-thirds of whom are women."



    Take home messages:

    1. Acupuncture will cause physiological effects, some of which occur even at sham points. In the treatment of chronic pain, placebo analgesia has a strong effect, working in about 30-35% of patients. Sham acupuncture works in 33-50% of patients, while true points are effective in about 55-85% of cases.

    In acute laboratory induced pain, the effects of sham acupuncture are non-existent, and placebo analgesia works in about 3% of patients. True acupuncture produces marked analgesia.(Pomeranz, Acupuncture Analgesia - Basic Research 2001)

    2. Applying the same treatment to all the patients reduces the effectiveness of acupuncture, as would testing a drug and giving everyone the same dose regardless of gender, age, weight, metabolic status, and on.

    3. Reading comphrension is important, as is knowing the topic you are attempting to argue.
  3. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 12:35am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, it's either placebo.. or needling people works, no matter where you needle them. Why the need for acupuncture training?

    You defeat yourself, thanks. Acupuncture has no basis in science, it's a mythology based procedure. Feel free to cast spells on your patients as well.

    Dr George Lewith, who recently published work suggesting acupuncture has an effect above and beyond placebo, said although the present study was well conducted, it did not truly test the placebo effect.
    Of course he would say this, this study challenges his work and career as an acupuncturist.

    The British Acupuncture Council said that using pre-prescribed acupuncture points for all patients might have skewed the results.
    Wow, this is a real surprise. You know, creationists don't like scientific studies about evolution either.


    Take home points:

    1. Acupuncture is a procedure based on thousands of years of mythology. It has no basis in science. It has no scientific mechanism outlined as to why or how it could work.

    2. Science is the only reliable method in determining how effective a treatment is. Anecdotes are all-too-often unreliable.

    3. Acupuncturists and upcoming acupuncturist are not to be trusted when it comes to medical claims.

    4. Acupuncture is equivalent to reflexology, iridology and witchcraft.
    Last edited by Thaiboxerken; 5/12/2005 12:38am at .
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  4. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 12:59am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good article.

    Hasn't acupuncture been used for anesthetic purposes in major surgery?

    THats hard to fake. A placebo effect won't distract you if your abdomen is cut open.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  5. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 9:46am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it is also difficult to use fake points during acute pain, which i have already posted. unfortunately, ken is unable to understand that. but since he intuitively agrees with the tag line, he ignores the other points that were brought up, namely that using the same point prescription for every patient reduces the effectiveness of the acupuncture, that needling anywhere in the body causes some effect, and that the patients had fewer migraines. even the study's authors realized that. unfortunately ken does not.



    but since ken really doesn't understand human physiology, nor is he a scientist, he once again bangs his head against the wall. repeatedly. sticking the skeptical inquirer up your ass doesn't make you a scientist.


    but if you really want to see how well needling without much training works, go see a medical acupuncturist with less than 300 hours of training. actually i am in the process of getting some recent acupuncture articles (including this one) to see the qualifications of the acupuncturists. if the acupuncturist has only 300 hours of training, like a medical acupuncturist, then it is unlikely that the results they get would be much better then sham acupuncture.
  6. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 10:02am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    but since ken really doesn't understand human physiology, nor is he a scientist, he once again bangs his head against the wall. repeatedly. sticking the skeptical inquirer up your ass doesn't make you a scientist.
    And I don't blame him.
    It's you accupuncturists that come up with unverifiable and fradulent claims.
    It's like that one lone telemarketer selling something usefull is drowned in an ocean of telemarketers selling bullshit.

    Even if acupuncture works, there is NO reason to think it works for the reasons acupuncturists THINK it works.

    One thing that Ken is missing though is that acupuncture has a potential to be useful, even if it only delivers placebo, and that acupuncture is very likely to have SOME effect on human body, like any other kind of physical therapy.

    The theory is wrong, the practice is correct. Not unusual.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  7. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 10:14am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    Good article.

    Hasn't acupuncture been used for anesthetic purposes in major surgery?

    THats hard to fake. A placebo effect won't distract you if your abdomen is cut open.

    Considering how sharp scalpels are, I wouldn't doubt that a person could be distracted not to feel the pain until the natural endorphins kick in from the actual cut itself. Some people could go into a mild state of shock as well. Some people also have a really, really high tolerance for pain as well.

    Stage hypnotists can get people to endure all sorts of pain as well.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  8. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 10:17am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    blah blah blah, yak, yak...please don't debunk my career.
    I'm not in this to destroy your career, but to help educate people to the fact that acupuncture has no basis in science and is equivalent to medical bullshido.

    Acupuncture is medshido.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  9. Quikfeet509 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 10:47am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    And I don't blame him.
    It's you accupuncturists that come up with unverifiable and fradulent claims.
    It's like that one lone telemarketer selling something usefull is drowned in an ocean of telemarketers selling bullshit.

    Even if acupuncture works, there is NO reason to think it works for the reasons acupuncturists THINK it works.

    One thing that Ken is missing though is that acupuncture has a potential to be useful, even if it only delivers placebo, and that acupuncture is very likely to have SOME effect on human body, like any other kind of physical therapy.

    The theory is wrong, the practice is correct. Not unusual.

    Tomas

    so acupuncture doesn't work for the reason i think it works? here is an overview by the man that discovered the acupuncture-endorphin theory of acupuncture. it is a little dated and he has done more research since then, but it gives an idea of how acupuncture works.

    http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/ac...meranzart.html

    i realize we never really got to discuss acupuncture like i had wished, but that isn't an excuse for your ignorant assumption of what acupuncturists think.
  10. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 10:50am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    I'm not in this to destroy your career, but to help educate people to the fact that acupuncture has no basis in science and is equivalent to medical bullshido.

    Acupuncture is medshido.

    i know deep down you are a nice guy, so i don't take it personally. but you should check the link above. there is much more research done on acupuncture then you are obviously aware of.


    like i said, it is a little dated. but a good overview.
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