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  1. patfromlogan is offline
    patfromlogan's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:15am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Point sparring benefit

    I was chatting with "Rhino" yesterday about martial arts and the local karate tournament. Rhino is called this nickname because of his size and charging techniques. He asked if I was ok because I was taking pictures when he blew his opponent out of the ring and into me. My wife was thrilled when the camera (and I) got dumped.

    He said that learning point sparring has made him a better fighter. As a wrestler he went State for all four years of highschool and he considers himself primarily a ground and pound type brawler. He resembles Tank Abbot. He is also planning on entering the local mma fights (http://www.ultimatecombat.com/Index.asp) and has got his sensei's permission. He has held bb rank in Kyushin-ryu for three years (the same Okinawan dojo my daughter bb'd in). That would mean he has at least eight years in karate.

    I mentioned to him what Prof Buell (founder of Universal Kempo Karate) told me, that point tourneys taught distancing and timing, but not self defense or fighting. Rhino said that learning the "finesse" needed to compete in point tourneys has helped him as a fighter, that learing "control" and "techniques" has improved his fighting abilities. He said that he is a better fighter now that he competes in point matches.

    The point is not that point sparring teaches fighting. The point is for Rhino, who (as sensei put it once in class), was obviously a tough fighter by the time he was in fifth grade, point sparring has improved his fighting.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  2. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:29am

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The question now would be is, would continuous fighting/sparring help him become a better fighter quicker or more efficiently?
  3. Kistrael is offline
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    Noob: Reloaded

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:30am

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     Style: MT nub, Ex-Tang Soo Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, any type of sparring will help you. It's just that point sparring blows when you're taught nothing but point sparring. Still not as effective as real contact though.
    DIDN'T YOU KNOW?! The Chinese know everything! And they knew it 4,000 years before YOU did!

    "Yes. Yes I am. I'm clearly illiterate and dictating this post to a squadron of several dozen trained jumping beans I've coearced into living on my keyboard, each named after a letter or character, which bounce up and down as I call their names." -JohnnyCache
  4. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:34am

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kistrael
    Still not as effective as real contact though.
    While Point fighting is synonomous with light/no contact. Point fighting is not mutually exclusive with full/hard contact.
  5. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:42am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    While Point fighting is synonomous with light/no contact. Point fighting is not mutually exclusive with full/hard contact.
    True, at said tourney one of the sr men's kumite guys got his ribs punched out.

    Another guy from the same school entered the combat experience heavy weight nhb'd div and won with one straight punch to the face. In class they spar hard, sometimes quite hard.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 5/11/2005 11:45am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  6. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:51am

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, another question would be, when you start continuous fighting, is point sparring beneficial anymore?
  7. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 11:52am

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     Style: 5.56

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course any type of competitive fighting will help you. The question is how much of that bull rushing point style sparring will have conditioned bad habits into him.

    I will never discount the power of a crazy ass full force charge with punches. However, sometimes that style of fighter is matched with a counterpuncher who lives for these kind of guys.

    Hmmmm. What am I trying to say here? His style, though very effective, may have conditioned bad habits and gotten him used to a particular style of fighting that is countered by guys like Vitor Belfort and Pedro Rizzo who simply wait for their opponent to move in and open up so they can KO them. If they come up against a methodical, side-stepping fighter these guys like Vitor and Pedro look like ****.

    What will be critical for your bud Rhino is to NOT be matched up against a counter puncher in his fights and he will be fine. If he is matched against one, he will be forced to change his method or get dealt with.
  8. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2005 12:00pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the big problem with pointfighting is twofold:

    1.) You land a good punch...okay. Very good. But if you're used to the "fight" ending and being broken up right there, it would seem like an uncomfortable mental habit to get into for the purpose of a situation where usually multiple good punches are needed to disable someone.

    2.) Point fighting encourages poke and retreat tactics which could be overwhelmed by someone who is not afraid of being hit and rushes you. If all your practice is against someone who leaps backwards when you throw a kick how will you react when someone simply eats your kick but crashes forward with multiple punches?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  9. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2005 7:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Full contact and hard contact sparring is the way to go - we have all known that for a long time. But I wish to share something.

    In my Kyokushin dojo we have people with backgrounds in other martial arts - mainly other karate styles like Shotokan who fight using point sparring.

    Now although these guys with point scorring backgrounds do not hit too hard - they are very fast and have good technique. Now when you have speed and good technique ou can develop power with the right training. So what I'm trying to say is that point sparring can help you prepare for the hard contact stuff and sometimes you'd be suprised how hard the 'point scorers' can hit.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  10. Branchuchan is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2005 2:25pm


     Style: Tang Soo Do/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal
    Now although these guys with point scorring backgrounds do not hit too hard - they are very fast and have good technique. Now when you have speed and good technique ou can develop power with the right training. So what I'm trying to say is that point sparring can help you prepare for the hard contact stuff and sometimes you'd be suprised how hard the 'point scorers' can hit.
    My experiance is a bit differant. When I did not train 'Live' with punches with true intention and power, I did a lot of bad things. When I went to a school with contact sparring, I was at a disadvantage because I was used to pulling my punches at the last second. It took me quite a while to stop pulling punches.. even when I tried not too, because that was how I had trained over and over again.

    In the past when I have fought against a point sparer, it was a very similar situation. They would come at me with a flurry or punches or kicks, all of which would have scored her a load of points.. But because they had never trained with true contact, I was able to brush the punches and kicks away and counter with real contact. The other person was visually more active, but I made more contact with fewer attacks.

    So, in my opinion, point sparring is... well... pointless. It teaches you how to pull your punches and not really hit your opponent. You're only as good as your training whenever you are in the ring with someone. If you never trained to actually hit them.. How do you expect to magically touch them at all? Sure a point sparrer can hit with speed and precision.. But.. In my experiance it was never with much force or intention while in the ring.

    Just my two cents... Everyone has differantexperiances :)

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