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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2005 6:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    alternatives to crossface

    So we already had this discussion:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20272

    But what I want to know is:

    If cross-face is such a bitch move to pull on someone, what are the alternatives?

    Not asking so much about the relative benifits, manners and ettiquette or general "are you a cross facing bitch" but just want to know, from those of you who kept saying, "there are better ways to get the same thing done."....what are they?
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  2. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2005 11:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Crossfacing is fine with most everyone if you don't try to break noses or turn a guys head so fast and hard that he can be hurt.Once it is in you don't need to do it with full force to get the job done.
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2005 12:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's kind of what I thought but on the other thread, JohhnyS and I think Yrkoon too (maybe it's a BJJ thing) kept emphasising that there were better ways.

    So far, all I've found from skimming the 10 page thread is this:

    From side control:
    I can turn the guys head by putting my shoulder on his jaw, thus stopping him from turning back into me.
    I can nail his far arm to the floor to stop him turning into me.
    I can lift up his near arm to stop him turning into me.
    I can put my head on his far shoulder/pec to stop him turning into me.


    That's it? I was pretty sure cross face could be used for more than just preventing a guy in side control from turing into you.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  4. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2005 4:25am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar,
    I'd use a crossface to turn someone's face for example combined with a sprawl as a defence against a shoot.
    I'd use a crossface to turn someone's face if I needed to.

    I guess it comes down to definition. Grinding some guys face with my elbow just to be a prick is a dog act. Doing a "Pe De Pano" and getting someone's back and crossfacing them (in other words a facelock) and causing them a bloody nose and to require stitches is a dog act.
  5. Bizzaro Root is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2005 9:30am


     Style: Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    Omar,
    I'd use a crossface to turn someone's face for example combined with a sprawl as a defence against a shoot.
    I'd use a crossface to turn someone's face if I needed to.

    I guess it comes down to definition. Grinding some guys face with my elbow just to be a prick is a dog act. Doing a "Pe De Pano" and getting someone's back and crossfacing them (in other words a facelock) and causing them a bloody nose and to require stitches is a dog act.

    i had the "pe de pano" move done to me except i was almost in an rnc. i tucked my chin and started to turtle and he just cranked the side of my face. i was so annoyed by it ai just refused to tap to that move. it made my ear swell up, anyways when the playing feild is level i dont mind it, but if a purple belt or higher does this to me it makes me think "thats what you had todo to get me".
    Eduardo "Why'd you stop."

    Me "I was kicked in the head by the guys sparring next to me."

    Eduardo "Ino what happened but i didnt say you could stop."

    Me "Um.. I guess I keep going."

    Eduardo "You dont stop until i say stop, you dont get tired until i say your tired, keep going."


    Originally posted by Ralek
    My cousin gave me some tapes of him doing tkd. I learned from those tapes. When I beat up an Akido instructor, and made him take rest breaks, I used TKD. I learned Bjj from watching ufc and pride and then I copied them and wrestled my cousin for practice. I choked him out and he tapped.
  6. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2005 10:00am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm with JohnnyS on this one.

    What I especially hate are people who like to go right across the nose for the submission. Those same kind of people seem to balk at the thought of me bending their fingers backwards. Ohhhhh but the fingers are small bones dat can be broken!!! Oh...? And what is the nose?

    As said before, crossfacing is something that has a time, a place, and a level of intensity. Stopping a shot for instance. But if you can't get a RNC and go for the jaw cranking crossface you might want to look at your RNC. Chances are you suck.

    Alternatives to crossfacing depend on the situation. As I said above, it is a poor substitute for a RNC, but an excellent tool to stop a shot. Whenever possible I will drive my shoulder into someone's face and jaw, but that is a nice meaty cushion, not a hard forearm bone. I will also occassionally use the palm of my hand to turn someone's head. Again, not quite as nasty as grinding a forearm bone into sensitive facial tissue.

    But my overall game is not to force things. If I meet resistance I will usually flow to something else. And if I do have to crossface I am usually moving into a position where I don't have to use it again. I am not a powergrappler. I find that people who actually base their game on techniques like the crossface tend to be the same kind who prefer to dig their elbows into your thighs for 5 minutes straight inside the guard.
  7. Bang! is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2005 10:10am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I'm with JohnnyS on this one.

    What I especially hate are people who like to go right across the nose for the submission. Those same kind of people seem to balk at the thought of me bending their fingers backwards. Ohhhhh but the fingers are small bones dat can be broken!!! Oh...? And what is the nose?

    As said before, crossfacing is something that has a time, a place, and a level of intensity. Stopping a shot for instance. But if you can't get a RNC and go for the jaw cranking crossface you might want to look at your RNC. Chances are you suck.

    Alternatives to crossfacing depend on the situation. As I said above, it is a poor substitute for a RNC, but an excellent tool to stop a shot. Whenever possible I will drive my shoulder into someone's face and jaw, but that is a nice meaty cushion, not a hard forearm bone. I will also occassionally use the palm of my hand to turn someone's head. Again, not quite as nasty as grinding a forearm bone into sensitive facial tissue.

    But my overall game is not to force things. If I meet resistance I will usually flow to something else. And if I do have to crossface I am usually moving into a position where I don't have to use it again. I am not a powergrappler. I find that people who actually base their game on techniques like the crossface tend to be the same kind who prefer to dig their elbows into your thighs for 5 minutes straight inside the guard.
    What you're saying . . . it's so logical that it must be a lie.
  8. Locu5 is offline
    Locu5's Avatar

    Zombie Herald

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 11:08am

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think if people stuck with crossfacing across the cheek area, things would be fine. The difficult part comes when the jaw and nose become involved. As for replacements, the only one I am able to use with any effectiveness is grabbing the gi at the collar and putting my knuckles into the side of my partner's neck. This is more likely a testament to my lack of skills, more so than the irreplacability (wtf?) of crossfacing.
  9. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 2:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the best ways to crossface someone is to do an upward swipe.

    Let me explain in more detail.

    First of all make a fist and try to push it upwards into the top lip. Use your first knuckle if possible. Break the skin if possible with the overall objective to rip that small piece of connector flesh between the inside of the lip and gum. Next move upwards into the nose area. Spend some time here and really work it. Let them savor the flavor of your pain. If you can, move your fist past the nose. There is a little spot between your thumb and your wrist. A small indention. This is perfect for getting 'under' the nose. The blood from your opponents lip might have made you a bit slippery, so it is important to use this little wrist crook to properly apply the pressure up into the nose wihtout losing hand positioning. Some people have really sharp cartillage in their nose. This upward pressure can get that cartillage to pierce the nose tissue for even more blood. Usually at this point it becomes too slippery from the blood. Nose blood can have distinct colors and consistency. Be sure to examine and appreciate this fine liquid. Continue the upward swipe until you reach the bridge of the nose. At this point you don't want to use that little wrist crook. No. You want to use the forearm bone itself for maximum pressure. With some practice you can find the bridge of the nose easily. Now from here you really have to stop the upward swipe and focus on bringing the pressure into their skull. Grab your own wrist and really crank down. Twist their head violently for maximum effect. If you feel some resistance you should not feel hesitant in switching arms and using the other forearm bone across the bridge of the nose. Never mind the squeels of panic, blood and frantic tapping of your partner. He is just letting you know that your 'technique' is perfect.

    There you have it. The upward swipe.
  10. Bizzaro Root is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2005 3:12pm


     Style: Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    One of the best ways to crossface someone is to do an upward swipe.

    Let me explain in more detail.

    First of all make a fist and try to push it upwards into the top lip. Use your first knuckle if possible. Break the skin if possible with the overall objective to rip that small piece of connector flesh between the inside of the lip and gum. Next move upwards into the nose area. Spend some time here and really work it. Let them savor the flavor of your pain. If you can, move your fist past the nose. There is a little spot between your thumb and your wrist. A small indention. This is perfect for getting 'under' the nose. The blood from your opponents lip might have made you a bit slippery, so it is important to use this little wrist crook to properly apply the pressure up into the nose wihtout losing hand positioning. Some people have really sharp cartillage in their nose. This upward pressure can get that cartillage to pierce the nose tissue for even more blood. Usually at this point it becomes too slippery from the blood. Nose blood can have distinct colors and consistency. Be sure to examine and appreciate this fine liquid. Continue the upward swipe until you reach the bridge of the nose. At this point you don't want to use that little wrist crook. No. You want to use the forearm bone itself for maximum pressure. With some practice you can find the bridge of the nose easily. Now from here you really have to stop the upward swipe and focus on bringing the pressure into their skull. Grab your own wrist and really crank down. Twist their head violently for maximum effect. If you feel some resistance you should not feel hesitant in switching arms and using the other forearm bone across the bridge of the nose. Never mind the squeels of panic, blood and frantic tapping of your partner. He is just letting you know that your 'technique' is perfect.

    There you have it. The upward swipe.

    lol
    i see osiris has given you a change of heart
    Eduardo "Why'd you stop."

    Me "I was kicked in the head by the guys sparring next to me."

    Eduardo "Ino what happened but i didnt say you could stop."

    Me "Um.. I guess I keep going."

    Eduardo "You dont stop until i say stop, you dont get tired until i say your tired, keep going."


    Originally posted by Ralek
    My cousin gave me some tapes of him doing tkd. I learned from those tapes. When I beat up an Akido instructor, and made him take rest breaks, I used TKD. I learned Bjj from watching ufc and pride and then I copied them and wrestled my cousin for practice. I choked him out and he tapped.
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