Thread: Truth in the Martial Arts
8/12/2002 8:00am, #11
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
- BJJ, Vale Tudo, Wrestling, Sanshou
I agree. The funny thing about people claiming to have the best martial art is that they are totally incorrect no matter which art they choose. It's like the person is saying "My set of limitations is much better than yours." By restricting yourself to one style all you are doing is placing limits on your ability to defend yourself. And the fact that someone actually tries to argue that their limits are better than anyone elses is ridiculous. In a fight, I'd always pick the BJJ/Wrestler/MT guy verses a pure BJJ, Boxer, or what-have-you with similar abilities and experience.
8/12/2002 1:32pm, #12
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
At least on person is brave enough to realize the truth.
8/12/2002 2:12pm, #13
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
- Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
If you research the history of several TMA you will find that they were generally a sysenthisis of other arts. Crosstraining was VERY common then. They realized NO ART held all the answers but they believed in the BASE method. You will find PURIST are really a modern thing. Look at any TMA masters background and you will find that he trained any more than one art. They kept their base art and crosstrained to improve it. Personally with the modern MMA bandwagon practice I find that many miss this. They jump from one art to another without developing a base. It is much easier to learn another art and understand the concpets if you have a reference point.
As far as the mulitple opponent thing. I agree NOTHING prepares you for it. But I won't say you CAN'T defend yourself form multiple opponents. I've done and I watche others do it. But like anything else it largely depends on the pple involved. I still say if faced with mulitple opponents find the fastest way out of there but sometimes I don't head my own words. On a different vein anyone who boast always taking on multiple opponents, especially if there is more than 3, is BSing!
Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!______
Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!
Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
8/12/2002 2:20pm, #149chambersGuest
I think the point that nobody can imitate someone else is a decent one. If you have a MMA school that limits what it teaches to your favorite throws, strikes and ground work then you are just as limited as a TKD school. You are limiting people to one or two segments from various TMA.
Having a MMA school that is just two arts combined can be good but just taking parts from both can be dangerous. Its like trying to crytstalize spontaneousness. If you do it right - teach about the body, its targets and levers and how to use them - rely on concepts rather than a specific number of techniques - then you can build fighters who are creative and innovative. Use the body - work on the arms then the legs and then the waist and head for grappling. Look at all the strikes and targets. I really wouldn't start a MMA school until you think you understand every way to manipulate the human body and express it offensively as well as defensively.
Thinking you know better than all the TMA guys can limit you too. Study the TMA thoroughly before you just branch out there on your own - after 20 years you might find that all the stuff you invented is already out there in TMA.
I am just saying, a specific combo of moves from other martial arts shouldn't be your MMA. Your school should cover things that you couldn't even use effectively. In order to claim to be comprehensive you have to study beyond just what works for you.
my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
8/12/2002 5:16pm, #15
Im not going to get into this SAME OLD ARGUMENT with cristobal. You're absoultely right man. YOU have come up with a TOTALLY REVOLUTIONARY idea to train in multiple arts.
I sound like a broken record here, but how old are you? I have a certificate for a yellow belt that dates back TWENTY YEARS. I KNOW that this idea of taking the best from various styles and everything WAS NOT AROUND or accepted until fairly recently. Bruce Lee introduced it to THIS country and he was RIDICULED for it. The Traditional stylists HATED HIM.
You say only an idiot would trade punches with anyone. Well in most arts such as Kung Fu, Karate, TKD etc that is EXACTLY what they would have you do. Dont boolsheet me and tell me otherwise. They would advocate that punching and kicking will stop a larger, stronger, violent attacker. They even advocated that punching and kicking would stop a a BUNCH of attackers. It is a flawed idea. An unworkable one.
Lightbulb: If you can hit someone, they can hit you back. Thats trading blows unless you cripple him with one strike which a LIFETIME of Boxing or full contact Karate should have taught you almost NEVER happens.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
Heres another little note for you: Ive choked someone UNCONSCIOUS when he had 3 friends around him. They didnt do JACK SHID. I have a witness to this also. It was outside a club called C.P.I. in the Hampton Bays in Long Island New York. I have a fake eye tooth as a result if this fight.
You also say that BJJ is not effective in a real situation. I would like to know the name of your BJJ instructor. I dont believe that you have alot of working knowledge of BJJ because you apparently believe that BJJ would blindly advocate its practitioners always taking a fight o the ground. Real fights end up on the ground nearly EVERYTIME. I do not believe that you have EVER used a martial art to defend yourself. I think your lying. Plain English. You also claim to study 7 different martial arts. You must have alot of time on your hands my friend.
You also hint the the UFC and Pride are not similar to a real encounter. You do not know what you are talking about. Im sorry to say. But people with your mindset blow my mind.
Do you respect Bruce Lee? Let me give you a little quote from him:
"Sparring is the ultimate test of ones abilities."<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Well, like I've said befoere, there is NO type of sparring that can come REMOTLEY closer to a real situation than Vale Tudo. People like yourself claim it is NOT close to reality so you can somehow TRY and convince the rest of us that you are on a greater level then those 'Crude MMA Fighters'.
You claim that "The UFC has mats." as your selling point. I would agree with you. You would last about 1/8th of the time on the srteet against one of those guys. You would be taken doen on a HARD surface and not a soft one. Thats the only difference.
I also dont believe that all techniques are equal. Garbage. It can be PROVEN. Certain techniques will generate more stopping power than others for 99% of the human race. Certain techniques require little strength while others require YEARS of practice to work for even the most physically capable practitioner and will NEVER work for the average person.
Let me clear up a point I made in the last post.
No art OR combination of arts will work against even the most HAPLESS multiple attackers. I do not believe that Rickon could fight off 3 people. I KNOW that none of us could. I am just humble enough to admit it. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
I dont mean to be a pain in the azz here, but I plan on making a living teaching martial arts. It used to be my full time job and it will be again soon.
We are lucky enough to live in a time where martial science is at a FEVER PITCH and at the very TOP level of effectiveness. We have to accept this and learn from it and not make up ridiculous theories to make ourselves sound smart. The arts of Karate, and Kung Fu and TKD were tested and found lacking. Im sorry to bring this to your attention. There are SOME good techniques within them but they are based on flawed concepts and unworkable strategies.
Martial Arts has suffered for YEARS in this country because people have been trying to convince the public that they are more than what they are. Thats why the arts are a LAUGHING STOCK. Try going to the store dressed in a Gi. People will laugh at you and make Bruce Lee noises behing your back because they have NO RESPECT for you.
The last thing im going to say is that anyone who thinks "It is not the STYLE but the PRACTITIONER" is correct than I have a nice bridge to sell you. Thats the LAST BASTION of the hopeless martial artisit. Thats there way of saying that "My art really ISNT useless, its just that you havent seen the TRUE MASTERS....."
And neither has anyone else.
Lets make us a little comparison, shall we? Let us say:
"It is not the car, but he who drives it."
So in other words if Mario Andretti drives a station wagon and I drive a Formula 1 car he will win in a drag race, correct?
<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
That is stupidity. In its most easily understood form.
My car would be technically superior to his in nearly every way. It wouldnt matter if he had been driving for years more than I.
Some arts are far better suited to defending yourself than others. If you dont believe that then say hi to Peter Pan for me the next time your in Never Never land, ok? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Whats REALLY gets me pissed is that many people DO believe that, but MAKE BELIEVE they dont just to sound knowledgable or to continue teaching unworkable techniques for profit and ego.
"Migo is such a nerdy, panzy ass, ****** mutherfukker." -Every member of the ADCC Forum(at one time or another).
Edited by - PeedeeShaolin on August 12 2002 17:59:26"All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC
Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
8/12/2002 5:55pm, #16
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
You make some damn good points. I myself am a Kung Fu player with a wrestling background who also trains in Tai Chi because I really would like to be healthy when I'm old. I train in martial arts not just to fight but for the health benefits.
That said, I am confident that if I got into a fight, I would rely on my wrestling. I can't see standing toe to toe with someone when they're swinging if I could just shoot in and take them down. 8 years of collegiate wrestling coupled with 8 years of Freestyle wrestling are going to serve me better. Especially when you consider the fact that we practiced 3 hours a day, every day, for 6-8 months out of the year. And that practice was 90% sparring. I don't care what martial art you take, you're not getting that much contact, and contact is what counts in a fight.
Bravo on your post. Makes me want to keep studying Tai Chi, while cross training in BJJ or something else rather than Kung Fu. But that's hard to do when you have a wife that thinks MA is for the birds!
8/12/2002 6:13pm, #17
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
Damn PeeDee, you make too much sense!!
I taught one guy a bit of grappling and he ended up having to use it in a club outside of a base in Yokosuka, Japan. Three of the dudes pals were around and the guy I practiced with slapped and armbar on him, cranked it, and popped his elbow. Mike (the guy I showed it to) ran out of there before his pals knew what happened while their pal rolled on the floor, kicking his legs in pain. A bad idea around multiple opponents, I know, but it did work.
In addition, I know a guy who trained in Muay Thai and was followed by two guys who wanted to jump him. Apparently they were two Air Force guys who didn't like this marine (the Muay Thai guy) hanging around their base. The marine knew what was up and when they started to run after him he stopped, turned around, and dropped BOTH of them with a right hook on one and an elbow at the other. He is lucky he wasn't grabbed, or things would have not turned out quite the same.
Yes, if you are prepared and lucky, you can defeat more than one guy. One thing is for sure, Brazilian Jujitsu does work.
The real questions are:
If you are up against more than one person with no weapon and they drag you to your back, what else will save you?
If two people grab you what's going to save you?
Is striking at that distance vs. two people going to save you?
Will grappling training that allows you to get control of one, push him into the other, and gives you the opening to escape going to?
Grappling in these situations makes sense too.
Edited by - Mr. Donkeypenis on August 12 2002 18:16:29
Edited by - Mr. Donkeypenis on August 12 2002 18:18:11
8/12/2002 8:54pm, #18
Mr. Donkeypenis, did your friend who fought in Yokosuka look anything like this?
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
8/12/2002 9:12pm, #19
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
I study Karate and i'm crosstraining in Judo. I had to fight4 guys that seemed to have a problem with me being in their territory. (they thought i was from a gang) Well on cae close i punched him in the face and started to run. One of them was catching up to me I did a judo take down and then when he as sitting up a came from behind and cranked his neck. Whent he othr 3 came i told them i would kill him if they came any closer. The guy iw as holding almsot cryingtold them to back off. So the others ran off and i let go of the one iw as holding and rant o my car.
Both arts helped me out
8/13/2002 2:37am, #209chambersGuest
I also think that Peediddy made some good points.
... Okay, I just wanted to say Peediddy. I think that's obvious so why pretend this post is more than that. Here is a quote from Bruce Lee.
I mean I do not believe that there is such a thing as, like, "the Chinese way" of fighting or the "Japanese way" of fighting ... or whatever "way" of fighting, because unless a human being has three arms and four legs, there can be no different form of fighting. But, basically, we only have two hands and two feet. So styles tend to seperate man - because they have their own doctrines and the doctrine became the Gospel Truth that you cannot change! But, if you do not have styles, if you just say "here I am as a human being. How can I express myself totally and completely?" - now that way, you won't create a style because style is a crystalization. That way (the opposite of style) is a process of continuing growth.
- Bruce Lee
my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!