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  1. cristobal79 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 8:14pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most of the people on the forums seem to think that BJJ or "Grappling" is the ultimate style or that it is all that you need to win a fight. I love BJJ but it is not effective in a real life situation. I know that that last sentence is going to start a lot of bashing but I don't care. Truthfully how many of you guys have been in real fights. Of those fights how many of them were against a single opponent. I'm not saying BJJ does not work, just that it is severely limited. You must learn BJJ but you can not limit yourself to this style alone.

    It is very important to know BJJ to be able to protect yourself in a ground fight but you can't stay on the ground. BJJ will get you killed in a bar fight or a street fight against more than one person. While you are applying a choke on one guy the other guy will be kicking you or hitting you with a weapon.

    Be truthful to your self. Do you really think you can take down and choke out 2 guys, 3 guys, 5 guys. Probably the most complete style of martial art is traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu. It includes multiple opponent defenses, ground fighting, striking, kicking, throws, take downs, etc.

    I know somebody is going to quote Rickson when he was asked about multiple opponents. He said that all he needed was a gun if he was in a confrontation with more that one person. Can you bring a gun to a bar, disco, night club, or an air port?

    Every body knows that it is important to deescalate a situation. If any attacker tries something verbal of physical you must try to deescalate the situation. If you are at the ATM and 3 muggers come up behind you the last thing you want to do is pull out a gun. First they probably also have a gun. You go for your gun and you will be Swiss cheese. You should avoid introducing a gun or any other weapon into a confrontation. Your gun or weapon can become the attackers’ weapon. So you can see that Rickson multiple opponent strategy is very flawed.

    Do any of you guys really think that the UFC, Pride, and other NHB events truly depict real life fighting situations? There are no mats on the street. Most of the time you will find tables, chairs, rocks, broken glass, trash, other obstacles, attackers with guns or knives, and usually more than one attacker.


    Bottom Line
    Don’t limit yourself to grappling, MT, TKD, Karate, or any other style. You must learn many styles. Pick from the best of each group (Grappling—BJJ, Striking—MT or TKD (not WTF), Weapon defenses—Aikido, Hapkido, Ju Jitsu) and be a well rounded fighter. You should be able to defend yourself effectively in any range.

    Enough with the bashing if this style or that style. They all work, some better than others. Look for the truth in the martial arts not what some guy in a magazine tells you. Don’t believe the hype of one master or another.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 8:59pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Multiple opponent defence" - there are two kinds, stuff that doesn't work, and running away. Unless they're simply THAT inept, no defence against more than one attacker is ever going to work, if you're alone. Either have friends, or keep aware of your surroundings so you're not ganged up on, and just split. Always leave yourself a way out. Weapons improvisation is a good idea for self defence, and some of those few good schools would help to teach that. Using your brain, and having understanding of different things about weapons would help too. But really, what you should be wanting to do is just get the hell out of the situation, period. Save your ego for another time. Just sniper punch someone and SPRINT.

    Oh, now that I remember... I think there was one time that someone was actually disarmed in all of Japanese history - weapon disarms are 99% CRAP. Something like using a shield is different than some "disarm" that only works against your training partner. Conditioning is a lot better, it helps you run away fast, have endurance, and also be able to go farther than the average person if you get cut. Don't disarm, RUN.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 9:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nihilanthic is TOTALLY right. NO ART is going to save you against multiple attackers. Your going to get a beatdown. I, for one, HAVE used BJJ against multiple opponents. I got taken down and used the guard to sweep him over so I could get back to my feet and ceate distance between we and the people around me. Without BJJ I probably would have been forced to STAY grounded and would have gotten smacked around. THAT is reality. Your NOT going to trade blows with more than one person. Youer not even going to trade blows with ONE person when he is, in all likelyhood, bigger, stroner, has a longer reach and has a body capable of withstanding greater punishment because of his greater mass.

    Sorry to pop your 'Return of the Dragon' bubble man.

    "Migo is such a nerdy, panzy ass, ****** mutherfukker." -Every member of the ADCC Forum(at one time or another).
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  4. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 10:02pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why do you mention trading blows?
  5. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 10:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can't say I agree with all these sweeping generalizations being made about multiple opponent fighting. 3 guys? Maybe, if you're good and they're not. It's been done. 5 guys? Good luck, you'll need it. 7 guys? Don't even think about it.

    It also depends on who fills what roles. Attacking is better than neutral is better than getting your ass jumped. The same person who could beat 3 guys from a stand-off might lose to them if he was jumped.

    Fighting multiple opponents is all about space control. A lot of times, this is a moot point because if you have enough space to maneuver you have enough space to escape, which is a better option, but if you're forced to fight, then it's as much about tactics as it is about anything else. Avoid going to the ground, avoid letting them get behind you. Try to isolate them individually as best you can, then take care of business until you can escape or the fight ends.

    I've seen group fights that I'd try to end forcibly and ones that I'd never think about doing anything other than running. It depends on more than numbers vs numbers, things like a crowd of spectators and weapons come into play. Yeah, I'll agree that disarms are most of the time bullshit, and that running is the best option against a weapon. But, if you don't have the option to run when faced with a weapon, you should know what to do otherwise, i.e., improvise (or pull out) your own weapon, get your boys to help, some natural, practical disarms, or psychological tricks (shouting "Cops!" can work wonders).

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  6. samantha711 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2002 10:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cristobal,
    Well said, but I'm not a BJJ purist..lol
    I crosstrain & believe that it's the only way for street, NHB...for life, yes...ever the drama queen.
    But, seriously...it's the only way to be complete is to have a striking & a ground game..mixed with some takedown skills...like someone said "one art is not going to save anyone"

    <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> Sam
  7. 10FingersOfDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 1:33am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sam, you're almost there but not quite. In fact I'm quite surprised that you're the one of all people who missed on element.

    "the only way to be complete is to have a striking & a ground game..mixed with some takedown skills"

    Can't forget weapon training, I'm surprised a practitioner of Kali would forget such a thing. LOL just messing with ya.
  8. samantha711 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 1:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol, I love weapons training, I use sticks & knives...but, I don't normally carry them around with me..so, I would like to think I can handle myself, with JUST myself...

    <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> Sam
  9. cristobal79 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:36am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Crosstraining is a must but you need to have a good base. This Base Style can be anything from Boxing, BJJ, kungfu, or any other style. The problem lies with purists. To destroy a purist in TKD, just kick him in the knee or take him down. Same with most of the striking arts. With the ground grappling arts you need to make sure you stay on your feet or have 2 people attack simultaneously.

    Every art has its strengths and weaknesses.

    By the way PeedeeShaolin only an idiot would trade punches with anyone.

    There is a reason for training in using weapons and in disarms. First of all there are a lot of techniques that are just plain Hollywood. There are real techniques that work. Most people don't know these techniques or have actually seen them. You should learn how to use knifes and sticks. Kali is one of the best systems for such training.

    Even though you say "I don't normally carry them around" you still need to train.

    Would you know how to escape from an arm bar if you did not know how it works?

    Would you be able to defend a choke if you did not know the body mechanics of why a choke is effective?

    One of the best ways to learn the mechanics of a footlock, armbar, clock choke, or any technique is to do the technique on a person. Once you know how to perform the technique it is much easier to deffend against the technique.

    The same is true for any style.
  10. cristobal79 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2002 5:47am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PeedeeShaolin

    You prove my point exactly when you say
    " I got taken down and used the guard to sweep him over so I could get back to my feet and ceate distance between we and the people around me."

    You used a piece of the art to defend but you got on your feet because you knew that had you tried some kind of lock or choke you would have been hurt by another person.

    You also prove my point when you say
    "Nihilanthic is TOTALLY right. NO ART is going to save you against multiple attackers"

    Duh!!!

    That is why you try to learn from different styles and find out what works best for you.

    You are supposed to put together a mixture of styles for yourself. This style will not be able to be taught. You can not teach a person to be you. You can try, but it won't work. No matter how much a person tries they can't be you. I can not fight with your style and you can not fight with mine. This is why imitators always lose.
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