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  1. #1
    shinbushi's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bujinkan Sigh :-(

    Almost enough to make me want to quit.

    Shane -- we've been having some discussion about this in my dojo lately, because some BJJ fighters have been challenging Bujinkan dojo in our area.
    From Kutaki no mura MMA vs BBT
    Basically, it comes down to a difference in what the arts are about. Sport martial arts are about two people training their bodies and getting into a ring or cage with a set of rules and seeing who is the better competitor at this art. That's fine, and nothing wrong with it... but its purpose is primarily for sport and competition. The arts that Bujinkan is derived from were not created and perfected for competition... they were created and perfected for real combat in the battlefields of ancient Japan. See the difference already?

    I hear the "no resistence from partners" argument about Bujinkan training a lot, and all I've got to say is -- someone should inform the sempai that I've trained with. I go home weekly with fresh bruises, blood and contusions, and I think my experience is similar to other budoka I've spoken with. Of course, when someone is teaching a technique, we don't resist so that they can show us the "textbook" version of the technique, and then once everyone has the basic mechanics of the technique down, we start resisting. Of course, for white belts and beginners, we don't let them fully resist because their ukemi might not be good enough yet to safely throw them around, but when I train with the sempai we go as full speed as safety will allow. We don't do much "free sparring," but that's because what we're doing isn't geared towards ever having to spar. If I'm in a street fight or any fight, my goal isn't to let someone get up, at all. I don't want to spar with them, because every second I let them fight back is a second I put myself in danger. My only goal is to dispatch them as quickly as possible and get the hell out of there. Sparring isn't the best way to do that. It's perfect for people who want to spar with each other or test their toughness, but I'm not about to tell the drunk at the bar who's pulled a knife on me that we should see who's tougher. I'm going to spit my beer into his face, crack the bottle on his head, throw the peanuts into his face and run away. Sure, later he can tell all his buddies how big a wuss I was, but hey... I survived.
    If it were not for my teachers, and my students man they don't get it.

    The only good post is from Garth from page 3 half way down
    n the old days of Ninjutsu in Feudal Japan, Ninja training was very tough. Training from a youth was common and if you could not perform, or did not try hard enough, it was not unknown for the Ninjutsu instructor to beat his student until he tried harder. Trainee ninja of course also got killed sometimes in training.
    In fact Ninjutsu was a trade, and as such Ninja must have spent much of teir time training.

    Today however we are much more laid back. We might visit the dojo once or twice a week, pay a visit to the gym, go for a run, but our training is not really intense.
    On the other hand MMA fighters coming up to a fight will train like any other athlete. They will hit pads, bags, visit the gym each night to spar, go running before breakfast, jump rope, start stacking carbohydrates as well as being aware of what they eat, Get back ground info on their opponent etc etc. In short they will live in the gym.

    If we are to compete with these people, technique and body movement is usually not enough.
    In your Dojo do you hit pads, practice ground fighting, spar with your partner, keep yourself fit, or do you practice what i would call Classical Ninjutsu i.e the kata.
    And yes there is a place for kata, but they are not the be all and end all. they are the place to start.
    Last edited by shinbushi; 4/26/2005 6:42pm at .

  2. #2
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to spit my beer into his face, crack the bottle on his head, throw the peanuts into his face and run away.
    Notice how the ?kan practitioner is drinking alone.

  3. #3

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ive always wanted to try out bujinkan or genbukan in the future.
    But things like these discourage me at times.Sigh.

  4. #4

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    We need more instructors like you in the x-kans, Shinbushi. You combination of classical kata training and modern SBG-style aliveness training sounds like it'd be fab.

    I asked about other bujinkan students' experience with focus mitt drills on another forum and a few folk were all like 'but wouldn't wearing bag gloves or the like interfere with tradition?'. I mean, WTF? I enjoy the art that I train in, but some of the stuff that some of the people training in it really make me scratch my head.

    As far as the whole randori/sparring = ego fest argument, it almost feels kinda hypocritical in some cases - chances are a lot of people's rejection of sparring/randori is due to a deep-down fear of getting whooped and having their ego shattered. Me, I have no such fear. I know I'd get caned by most people. :D

    I'm tempted to post a link to the Matt Thornton clip where he explains aliveness on Kutaki, but I'm not in the mood to get flamed by those who've had their viewpoint destroyed. :P

  5. #5
    shinbushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil-o-Mac

    I'm tempted to post a link to the Matt Thornton clip where he explains aliveness on Kutaki, but I'm not in the mood to get flamed by those who've had their viewpoint destroyed. :P
    If you do they will do the sport vs street arguement.
    I got in an aliveness war a few moths ago and the reply was why don't you ask Soke if you should be sparring and training alive. I go to japan to learn what he has to teach not rubber stamp my training methods. Should I ask my Muay Thai instructor if I should train in Greeco clinch in addition to Thai Clinch ? :cussing:

  6. #6

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :XXknight:

    Hang in there, man. You make a great example that more high profile Buj teachers should follow. It's unfortunate that so many of the best shidoshi stay under the radar, the majority of students never get exposed to training mentalities like yours.



    I understand/agree that budo taijutsu largely falls under a different paradigm than sport systems and that they cannot be directly compared. But I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse for not being able to perform at even the most amateur level of ability against these other arts. There is a whole Bujinkan dojo near here of which (I am sad to say) I would expect nearly every student to get steamrolled by a truly aggressive fighter, simply because they are not confronted with the stress of a dynamic situation (at least in a realistic manner).

    There is also this excuse that as a "budo," we will always shift the variables in our favor so it isn't a fair fight, and since sparring puts you on equal ground it therefore doesn't apply to a real fight. But when you are TRAINING, what is the problem with isolating all those variables so you can focus on some specific conceps in a dynamic way? Isn't that the point of randori... to capture/control the chaos/war?

    There is so much to learn from different methodologies; with the stress from Hatsumi (and the ryu themselves) on being flexible and balanced in all ways, I constantly fail to understand why so many of the most public proponents remain martially xenophobic.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spunky
    I would expect nearly every student to get steamrolled by a truly aggressive fighter, simply because they are not confronted with the stress of a dynamic situation (at least in a realistic manner).
    That happened to me when I left my taekwondo dojo for a MMA gym.
    I couldnt sleep because it made me realized how much of an ass I was when I use to think I was the **** when I took taekwondo :coffee:

  8. #8
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shinbushi, man, you have my sympathy. You really do. If you want to talk with someone about this just to deal with the stress you can PM the crap out of me.

    But look at it this way. You're the one man who can make a big difference for the better at your school. If you were to leave no one would be left to carry the flag.


    EDIT:

    Heh.

    That's what I think Dale-sensei meant about measuring the size of generative organs. A lot of MMA people (not necessarily you) sneer at traditional arts like the Bujinkan because most of us aren't interested in fighting in their competitions, and as a result, the assumption is that Bujinkan people can't fight well or that our art is one for fakes (see Bullshido.net for clarification of this point), and it's a sore spot for some people.


    By the way, do you think that the BJJ guys will come over for a challenge? If so, I think some video might be in order... :new_smile
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 4/26/2005 10:59pm at .
    Best Vietnam War music video I've ever seen put together by a vet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDY8raKsdfg

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castel
    That happened to me when I left my taekwondo dojo for a MMA gym.
    I couldnt sleep because it made me realized how much of an ass I was when I use to think I was the **** when I took taekwondo :coffee:
    I know the feeling having moved from karate to bjj. I still train some karate, but the delusions are gone.

    As for the whole sport vs reality argument, I think it's just lame. How can anyone claim that doing everything only at a theoretical level and hoping it will miraculously work in a real scenario (bujinkan and most other tma's) is better or even compares to training a system at full intensity and knowing that it works ("sport" bjj), with the added knowledge of t3h d34dly techniques on a theoretical level (vale tudo)?

  10. #10
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    BWAH HWAH HWAH, check this out...

    Please remember that a classically trained budoka was trained from early childhood in the arts of war. They were reared with a warrior spirit that is rarely seen today, and when it is those people are often feared as if they were some sort of crazed being. It takes time to develop in any classical martial art, not just the Bujinkan, to a point where the art will be useful in a real-life combat encounter.
    ...
    Perhaps you should seek out Pressure Point Control Tactics, a system delevoped by Bruce Siddle. This is what many police officers are taught in the US, because it is easy and does not require a lot of practice.

    Heh, and this papa-san guy went and ripped poor Gareth a new one, or tried to:
    Garth, if you are happy with what you are doing then that is fine with all of us. You see, no matter what your opinion of your training, its effectiveness will be tested in any real situation. If you chose poorly, it is your life and well-being on the line, no one else's. Opinions and "beliefs" are fine, but they are not fact. That is determined where the cheeze gets binding. To presume that the Bujinkan is not effective in real situations or less so than the "To shin do" is a real big presumption, one not supported by fact. So enjoy your training and live with the results you get, as will we all.

    HA HA HA HA HA HA hack cough wheeze....

    Gotta agree with Ed here, it`s whatever floats your boat, if you feel that the art you`re studying does it for you then fine, if it doesn`t then change, I, like Ed find that BBT does it for me but that doesn`t stop us looking at other serious arts, i say serious because of the we`re all aware of the crap that`s out there.


    Ah, more of "bujinkan dosen't suck until you go all the way to Japan"

    My point is that before you are making a judgment about what lies on the other side of the mountain, go to the mountain yourself, see with your own eyes and judge for yourself. Three weeks of training in Japan with Soke, along with teachers such as Shraishi-sensei, Nagato-sensei, Someya-sensei and others will surely give you a far more informed perspective on this decision.

    Why Bujinkan is better than Tito Oritz:
    I remember an interview with Tito Ortiz in Penthouse Magazine several years ago. Ortiz mentions that he once got into a fight at a party and put his opponent into a guillotine hold (which is a particularly nasty choke/neck crank, hurts like hell).

    Well, lo and behold Ortiz's opponent had a friend at the party and he didn't like what Ortiz was doing to his buddy. Tito got a beer bottle smashed on top of his head, which pretty much ended the fight.

    Mixed martial arts is about fighting. Real martial arts is about surviving.
    Because a typical fat bujinkan blackbelt 1.) would have been able to make a technique work on a resisting opponent and 2.) is immune to being snuck up on with a bottle.

    My god, have these bujinkan guys got delusions of psychic grandeur? They think that because they do the booj they can't be blindsided or sucker punched?


    But I'm saving the best for last:

    So, let me offer how a person practicing ninjutsu should view mixed martial arts. Take a few hundred small pieces of paper and label each with different tags such as unarmed, sword, knife, many opponents, spear, in water, in a smoke filled burning house, on horse back, while sick, after three days with no food and water and put these in a large container. Now, you draw out one piece and have someone else take another. Now, thatís mixed martial arts the way someone following the Old Ways think about it. I think anyone can see how open ended the various situations can become. Until the mixed martial arts community can show that a few wrestling skills and a little physical condition (often combined with performance drugs) can address these situations better than what has been passed done by men and women ho have lived through them, then training in mixed marital arts is actually more an obstacle then a help
    See? Practicing mixed martial arts makes you less likely to survive physical trauma and difficulty than not exercising. Oh dear god...please, someone go punch this man in the face. Too much pain to read.
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 4/26/2005 11:35pm at . Reason: FOR GREAT JUSTICE!
    Best Vietnam War music video I've ever seen put together by a vet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDY8raKsdfg

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