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  1. SMF is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 7:22am


     Style: Delusional Idiocy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Fibre Recruitment" Question and a whole new can of worms.

    I would love the perspectives of mediocrates (for one) on this one.
    Now I was once told the following somoene i trusted by virtue of their ability to do things i could not:
    'When you do a very heavy, controlled slowww lift, your "fast twitch" fibres are going absolutly crazy, thus although you are not lifting "explosivly" one of the things you are training is your capacity for explosive power'(paraphrased)
    Is this bullshit?
  2. the Dabbler is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 10:09am


     Style: jazz hands

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I asked a knowledgeable trainer a similar question, pertaining to olympic lifters. He said they do alot of slow training despite the explosiveness of their competition lifts. Not exclusively of course.

    I don't know if thats true or not, so I guess I just added to your question instead of answering it. But it sounds logical to me.

    I did a search and found this article which pretty much agrees.
    http://www.cbass.com/SLOWFAST.HTM

    " The misconception is that speed of movement is the governing factor. The notion is that if you move slowly in training you only activate the slow-twitch fibers and if you move quickly, you will activate the fast-twitch fibers. This is part of the rationale for advising athletes to train with not just fast, but explosive movements. This intuitively obvious rationale is actually incorrect. It is one instance where "common sense" is wrong.

    Muscle fibers are activated in order of their size, but the key stimulus determining how many fibers are activated and fatigued is intensity of effort. Thus, I could move very quickly using a moderately heavy resistance but this may not be a high intensity effort. Conversely, I could move very slowly with a resistance and reach a point of momentary muscular failure after five repetitions and one minute of "time under load". Such a degree of intensity likely equates to activating and fatiguing fast twitch fibers. "

    Read the whole article, it provides a case for explosive lifting as well.
    Last edited by the Dabbler; 3/21/2005 10:42am at .
  3. Mediocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 12:40pm


     Style: Fabio Santos BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now I was once told the following somoene i trusted by virtue of their ability to do things i could not:
    Well, first off...don't let this ever be an influencing factor. Principles of physiology and training are valid (or invalid) regardless of who says them. Have an open mind, but have a critical mind. If a million people say a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing.

    When you do a very heavy, controlled slowww lift, your "fast twitch" fibres are going absolutly crazy, thus although you are not lifting "explosivly" one of the things you are training is your capacity for explosive power'(paraphrased)
    Is this bullshit?
    It's roughly been answered, but that's basically right. I'm going to paint with slightly broad strokes here, so those of you who know the details will see that I'm leaving some of them out for the sake of explanation.

    In all of our muscles, there is a spectrum of muscle fiber types. They range from the type that can deliver low levels of force for a sustained period of time (Type I, also known as slow-oxidative) to those that can deliver large amounts of force but only over short periods of time (Type II fibers, also known as fast-glycolytic). Each muscle has some amount of each type and this amount varies between muscles and between people (based on both genetics and muscle function). A group of the same type fibers are joined together with a nerve connection to form a motor unit. This is the smallest unit that gets recruited when a muscle is used. The number of fibers in a motor unit can range from only a handful to upwards of a thousand, but the number of fibers per motor unit tends to increase as we move across the spectrum from Type I to Type II.

    When a muscle is used, recruitment is performed in an orderly, logical fashion based on the force requirements of the task. First, the motor units on the Type I side of the spectrum are recruited. This is typically sufficient for most everyday tasks (walking, posture, etc.). There is no need to bring in the larger/more forceful motor units, since these tasks are not high in force requirement (for a typical individual). As we move to the context of high-force activity (strength training), the body must recruit larger and larger motor units, meaning more and more Type II motor units.

    So, in a slow, controlled movement, the relevant musculature has many (possibly all) available motor units active to move against the resistance. The key point is that, since it is relatively slow, the musculature is required to provide that force fairly consistently through the full range of motion. This is how the "fast twitch" fibers can be "going absolutely crazy" without the movement being high in velocity. The force required to maintain the movement eventually becomes close to the maximum force output of the relevant musculature, so the brain is firing all motor units it can as fast as it can (mind you, this doesn't have to happen on the first or second repetition of a set). Muscle fibers fire in fractions of a second, so even a slow repetition that might take 6-10 seconds will require fibers to fire many times. Eventually, some of the muscle fibers fatigue and no longer fire. Once enough of them fatigue, there is not enough force to continue movement against the resistance. This is what we macroscopically call "failure" (or "momentary muscular failure" or "concentric muscular failure").

    This process makes full demand of the neurological aspect as well as putting high demands on the musculature, which (provided the time/resource/genetics to do so) leads to increased strength. Strength applied via the skill pertinent to the end application (football, Olympic lifting, etc.) determines "explosiveness." Improving one's strength is important, but developing the required skill is equally (if not moreso) important.
  4. Chupacabra is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 1:34pm

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     Style: 5AF & Sub Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    how explosive you are has more to do with your central nervous system than it does your muscle fibers.

    your "slow twitch" go first until they can't lift any more then your "fast twitch" kick in and help finish the movement.

    Basically, if you don't train explosively you won't be explosive no matter how much weight you can sling around. If you want to be explosive, you have to train that way.
  5. the Dabbler is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 1:59pm


     Style: jazz hands

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But the question is, is this statement true.
    "although you are not lifting "explosivly" one of the things you are training is your capacity for explosive power"

    It sounds logical that you can increase your capacity for explosive power by doing slow lift training, especially since your fast twitch fibers are being used.
  6. Chupacabra is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 2:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5AF & Sub Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by the Dabbler
    But the question is, is this statement true.
    "although you are not lifting "explosivly" one of the things you are training is your capacity for explosive power"

    It sounds logical that you can increase your capacity for explosive power by doing slow lift training, especially since your fast twitch fibers are being used.

    seeing as how muscles move your body - yes.

    will slow lifting make you more explosive - kinda yes but mostly no.

    In order to be explosive you have to train with explosive movements. The stronger your muscles are to begin with the more potential they have to become explosive, but no slow lifting will not make you "explosive" so to speak. However you train is how you'll be.
  7. Mediocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 3:15pm


     Style: Fabio Santos BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    how explosive you are has more to do with your central nervous system than it does your muscle fibers.

    In order to be explosive you have to train with explosive movements.
    You're kinda there, but you're still missing the key element.

    In order to be "explosive" in a given movement that requires it, one must train that specific movement in that specific fashion. That's why the neurological adaptations are so important.

    It is paramount to understand that there is no general physiological trait of "explosivity" that can be trained.
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 3:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When you lift HEAVY and I mean in the 90% and over category, you will NOT be doing anything fast or explosive because the weight is too heavy.
    When you attpemt lifts close to your max, you will, by necessity, be lifting as "fast as you can".
  9. SMF is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2005 5:06pm


     Style: Delusional Idiocy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks a great deal.

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