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  1. #21
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiAssassin
    I
    By this I mean could there be proof in the history of the people who created it?
    I don't think the history proves anything. Let's look at this logically. Let's I assume I create a martial art which we consider for the sake of example to be effective in all the ways that count; it is our archetypal good art. I die, and a few generations later there is a man who claims to teach this art. However there is no reason at all that this man is doing anything like how I am doing it. Even if his lineage checks out you have no way of knowing that whatever I figured out has indeed been correctly passed on from person to person.
    Best Vietnam War music video I've ever seen put together by a vet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDY8raKsdfg

  2. #22
    Vargas's Avatar
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    Well hell, if we go by the historical record, the Greeks (pankration, boxing, wrestling) would be pwning everyone on the planet. However, after watching the Greek athletes in the combat sports this past Olympics, I can safely say that the Greek unarmed fighting tradition has seen better days.


    Past tales of the fighting prowess of martial arts 'masters' is just that, tall tales and 'war stories'. People can see guys with truly amazing fighting skill all the time on PPV, but would rather watch Fists of Fury on SpikeTV and believe some 70-year-old guy in silk pajamas can beat the living **** out of 10 grown men. People prefer fantasy over reality and martial arts is just the most blatant example. . .
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"

  3. #23
    Xango's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Credit where credit is due, Izzy...

    In that spirit, Vargas, I've gotta say that Ilias Iliades fought one of the best Judo matches of the last Olympics. Of course he was born in Georgia...but that would truly be nitpicking, no?

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh man we are all entitled to nitpick which is why I go into the how and why. I mean we are in an era where MMA is prevelant. I think that is fucking awesome but MMA combat for the ring and for the streets are different. Where we may take a bigger opponent to the ground in a cage we may decide that a second or third strategy in the streets.

    So in the case of a MA being developed in the here and now and then being taught in a later period maybe the era in which it was made may show why it was going down a certain road. Maybe here in the states cage match fighting hepled it developed. Where as in a country proned to war a similar or another branch of the form evolved sort of like Krav Maga. In the future looking back I may take all that into consideration and follow the path of the waring nation due to the life or death circumstances that helped it evolve. Not sure if this makes any sense but I feel that the culture gives much insight to a particular form.

    As for grand masters in many cases that is the truth you could have had a kick ass grand master and a so so student, it is def important to a student to know that your sifu, sensi or instructor can do what he preaches.

    My sifu is fucking awesome and so are my instructors they believe in evolition and applicability but rely on tradition to keep the knowledge centered. They don't always go from one system to another but train other styles at the same time.
    I am big on that too. I am the type of person that would like to know the whole art. Because it is that and art. IT gives you as a person a chance to say this works and this doesn't. If a person takes from an art and only teaches you what he deems important than who's to say that the other stuff would not work for you. Also my experiences in JJ and WC, alot of the things we say the art needs (all the good killa ****) isn't taught until advanced levels. And lets face it not everyone coming to train can handle it all at once.

    Cross training is important, Knowledge is deadly, I just feel that students today want things now (which is fine) but in many of those cases much is lost in the transaltion or lack there of.

    My "kung fu brother"(you all are going to kill me on this) and my instructor trained with Royce Gracie. He reps at a school near us from time to time, as an affiliate of the school he comes and trains with the students. Through our own personal cross training it was found that hand trapping can lead to excellent positioning when entering a grappling match. Just an interesting tid bit I thought I would add.

    Any how thanks for the insight!

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never bought that **** that Krav is pressure tested in a war zone. Man, the IDF rip around Palestine in tanks and armoured bulldozers carying more fucking hardware than Keano in that scene in the matrix where the lobby of the building gets shot-up.

    In contrast the Palestinians are throwing rocks and making bombs out of cow **** and bleach.

    There is virtually no context where these people are involved in hand to hand combat, knife fighting or probably even at either end of a handgun.

    which is not to say that Krav is bad (I've never trained it), just that in my opinion it has zero applicability to the conflict over there.

    As for the rest of it, I can only repeat what izzy has already said. If you're planning on doing some filthy jungle knife fighting in the near future, then Silat is probably a good choice.

  6. #26

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HAPKO3
    The credibility of a fighting art is measured by the ability of it's practitioners to kick ass. Period. Nothing else matters.

    All that needs to be said, ever.

  7. #27
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    I forgot to mention, Spain ruled the Philippines for 300-plus years. Fought off? When?

    Oh, you. With your little facts. That's so cute. :surprised
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 3/18/2005 9:50am at .


  8. #28

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    I don't think the history proves anything. Let's look at this logically. Let's I assume I create a martial art which we consider for the sake of example to be effective in all the ways that count; it is our archetypal good art. I die, and a few generations later there is a man who claims to teach this art. However there is no reason at all that this man is doing anything like how I am doing it. Even if his lineage checks out you have no way of knowing that whatever I figured out has indeed been correctly passed on from person to person.
    excellent points, the lineage means very little if you are not a good fighter!

    i hate people that argue over lineage, heritage, etc. its a great thing to know where the knowledge came from. but leave it there, and become as good as you can. train as thoroughly as you can and seek perfection. who came before you, doesnt mean as much as how you can fight right now!

  9. #29

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lightninghands
    excellent points, the lineage means very little if you are not a good fighter!

    i hate people that argue over lineage, heritage, etc. its a great thing to know where the knowledge came from. but leave it there, and become as good as you can. train as thoroughly as you can and seek perfection. who came before you, doesnt mean as much as how you can fight right now!

    Yeah, what the white boy said!!!

  10. #30

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas
    Past tales of the fighting prowess of martial arts 'masters' is just that, tall tales and 'war stories'. People can see guys with truly amazing fighting skill all the time on PPV, but would rather watch Fists of Fury on SpikeTV and believe some 70-year-old guy in silk pajamas can beat the living **** out of 10 grown men. People prefer fantasy over reality and martial arts is just the most blatant example. . .

    I was going to mention this.
    The stories, be it oral tradition or written, will get embellished to the point of ridiculousness. Obviously as those that want to further that cause are apt to do, the stories will get spread and the masses will be led to believe this as truth.
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