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  1. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Stockholm, Sweden
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    1,155

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 10:52am


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I ask questions like this you have to realize that BJJ is a very young sport in Sweden. The people I'm learning from are a purple, a blue who's getting his purple in two weeks, and two blue belts who were promoted about four months ago. There are only three black belts in the entire country, so there's not exactly an infinite pool of knowledge and experience to draw from, but we do our best...
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  2. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 12:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a whole series of attacks I use when they lock up from the armbar.

    And to be totally honest sometimes none of them work. There is no 'one sure way' to break that grip. Sometimes you are tired and they are not. Sometimes they have a deathlock grip. Sometimes they grab their own gi. Sometimes you think if you try a particular technique they are going to get out.

    Personally the FIRST thing I do is reach over and grab the OPPOSITE elbow and pull toward me. People do not do this enough. They are so concentrated on the armbar arm they forget to take power away from the REINFORCING arm. This is key for me.

    Second, although the elbow grab sometimes gives me enough leverage to take the armbar, oftentimes it does not. So I continue my attack by 'walking' up the armbar. By this I mean lets say my left arm is inside. I then put my right arm inside on top of my left. I have moved leverage away from their bent elbow, toward their wrist (more leverage up there,k?) now I put my left back in there on top of my right and so on. In effect, I am 'walking' up their arm away from the elbow toward the wrist by layering my arms on top of each other repeatidly. Eventually I am moving away from pulling on a bent elbow and I am now pulling against their wrist. Again much more leverage up there.

    Third, if I am still unable to get the proper leverage I go back to working on the reinforcing arm. As others have said, use the chest foot to push in the crook of their reinforcing arm. Sometimes you begin to lose position and they start to wiggle. IMHO I do not want them rolling me into my guard because I was busy screwing around with my foot. I will stop doing this manuver if I feel I am going to lose position. The reason WHY is detailed a bit later.

    Fourth, if this is Gi work I need to use my BACK and BODY to extend the arm. Not just pull with my arms. So I will sit up, reach inside their arm and grab my own collar lapel as deep as I can go. Now I cannot use my arms to 'pull' their arm out. I have to EXTEND my body. And trust me here, you are stronger in the body/back than you are with simply using your lats/arms. This is especially usefull if you combine this with step #1 with is the opposite elbow grab. These 2 manuvers usually get the arm for me. I would say 70% success rate. I will alternate methods and positions eventually trying to get to a spot where I can use both of these.

    Fifth, sometimes you have to get sneaky. The bicep lock and wrist flex are sneaky moves when you can't make them let go. But they are sorta cheap and situational. I will not rely on these as my bread and butter. There is definately NO DENYING they work. I will use them. But they are deep down in my bag of tricks and if you use them all the time people will get used to them. To be honest both of these compromise your grips and position and make it that much easier for them to escape. So I will only use them when the guy is completely demoralized, knowing its only a matter of time, and his arms are all tired from me working them. They give these things up easier when they are tired. Like I said, the tricky stuff or complex manuvers I have are best used situationally, not as your staple techniques. This includes the complex palm to palm elbow twist I use. Its very owny, but would require pictures to explain. Again, KISS is a good policy, and these manuvers are not KISS.

    Sixth, when all else fails and you just aren't going to get an easy armlock sometimes it isn't worth fighting and using up all that energy. JIU JITSU is not about 'forcing' something and trying to crank someones arm out using all your strength. This is the brute force method that big guys use on little guys. And when a big guy goes up against a bigger guy they are at a loss. So I prefer a different approach. It is also NOT worth giving up the position, as detailed in my THIRD point, you don't want to screw around and let the guy roll up and put you in your guard. You were just in mount, and now he is in your guard? Bad move if it could have been avoided. Better to play a solid safe game than a risky one. If the armlock isn't going to break loose I transition to the double attack. Simply sit back up into the modified mount, the leg that was over their chest is now foot down. He will be forced onto his side. The leg that was over their head goes behind their shoulders/head while on your knee. Do not let your front foot get pushed down into his half guard. This is critical to the double attack. Now begin to set up the collar choke while maintaining the threaded arm position. Now your opponent has to defend the choke AND the armlock. his concentration is divided, his strength should be sapped and you are transitioning to a chain attack situation being fluid and looking for the new opportunities you see.

    There are a LOT of other 'things' I do to take the armlock that are details or variations, etc. What you see above is my game plan. My strategy and why I use it. I can go into an entire thesis on WHY you would not just pull straight back when trying to take the armbar, but rather crank towards his head, lifting his arm above his shoulderline, and THEN straighten back. Or when to hold the leg and where. Or which arm to thread inside and when they work best. But those are details. And there are sooo many details they cannot all be covered. Your own personal 'style' is sure to develop, and what emphasis you place on each detail is no 'absolute truth', it is highly individualistic and refined over time.
    Last edited by Yrkoon9; 3/15/2005 12:25pm at .
  3. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Stockholm, Sweden
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 12:17pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^wow. Great response. "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yrkoon9 again."
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  4. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    8,049

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 12:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hehe, I had a little guy try and force an armbar on me (big guy). He threw out his back.

    Great post. I'll keep in mind the far arm bit.
  5. KhorneliusPraxx

    Guest

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 1:02pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yrkoon9,
    Great post. I'll keep in mind the far arm bit.
    KP
  6. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    8,049

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 1:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    echo?
  7. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Philadelphia
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    881

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 3:09pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally, I dont like using the method of pushing the opponents other arm with your foot on the chest- I believe it gives your opponent a better chance to escape.

    One of my methods is going to be hard to explain with words, so I'll give you the other option first:

    Assuming you've got your arm hooked through his arm and hes holding it with the other (lets say your right arm is hooking through his right arm in standard armbar from the mount).

    You can put your right hand in the crook of your left elbow and then put your left hand over top of the wrist of his right arm- try to pull his wrist "down" with your left hand and pull in and up towards your stomach with your right arm. This creates a type of bicep slicer that encourages alot of people to release their grip due to the pain at which point you can simply take the arm back. When you start to apply the bicep slicer, I try to rotate my right wrist so that instead of my wrist bones facing side to side, they face the ceiling and ground and painfully grind into his bicep.

    Lots of people use this technique successfully, and no one ever taps to the bicep slicer, but rather lets go and usually taps out from the armbar.

    Always remember to pull at the wrists when you get the armbar to maximize the leverage. Many people know this, but still do not do it when they attempt an armbar.
  8. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
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    1,155

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 4:24pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool, like I said, I used to do that move, but quit doing it when someone told me it would be illegal in a tournament. I never thought about its uses for opening the arms. Now, what would the consequences be if I actually used a bicep slicer in that way in a tournament where they were forbidden? Would I be disqualified, even if he didn't tap?
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  9. KenpoDude is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mansfield, PA
    Posts
    41

    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 5:05pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah, the short arm scissor is the same thing as the bicep slice, sorta like what's described above by gumby.

    and x2 on the great post yrkoon.

    kd
  10. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2005 5:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Under the new rules, yes.

    However, you will probably be warned. In fact you probably wont even be warned. And only warned if the other coach saw it and complained to the referee. But if you did it real fast, the guy released, and you took the arm to make him tap? Gonna be tough to re-start the match as your team rushes to congradulate you.

    I know it sounds cheap...but I do it for my guys. And yes, I did it at last GQ and plan on doing it again next GQ. Imma dirty bastard.
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