Posted On:2/26/2003 3:23am
Tried posting this under the thread Jungyae Moosul but for some reason it would not take, so I am starting the thread over. Thanks for understanding.
I have been reading articles here for a while, but I have never posted. I don’t get to stop in very often, but when I did this time I found this topic. Why is that important you ask? Well because I am an ex-Jungyae Moosul Instructor. After reading the posts here I thought it was important for people to know about Jungyae and to add to / clarify some of the things being said here. I am not here to bash per say and what I have to talk about are simply my opinions and recollections of events as I saw them happen – YMMV.
First if you really want to understand please go here and read the whole message thread.
This link has been posted before, but it is written very well (better than I could :o) I know the Instructor who wrote this and I invite him to repost it here if he is so inclined. Yes, he is also en ex-JYMS Instructor and no I am not him.
First - yes, Jungyae Moosul is basically Tae Kwon Do Plus. Even though they claim to teach all styles (and have theories for them) they have no real application for anything except a Hard Tae Kwon Do style. All the forms, hand and foot techniques are based on Tae Kwon Do. There are weapons and self-defense techniques thrown in at each belt level. Some are really good while others were simply made up by the “master” (or made up by someone else and then the “master” would take credit) - at the time I left their was an attempt to put in Wing Chun style techniques at the Black Belt level, this was not well executed. Instead of actually learning a style of Wing Chun the “master” preceded to simply make up and modify his own “Wing Chun style” of techniques. Also, we were told not to call it Wing Chun, because: “This is Jungyae Moosul and all things must come from Jungyae Moosul.”
Any Kung-Fu style of techniques that were seen would most likely have come from the Marysville Academy (at the time, Marysville is one of the schools that has left Jungyae) or from the Woodinville Academy. The Instructors of those academies have (or had) a deeper interest and understanding of the soft styles and would often supplement their training (or demo teams) with those aspects. If some one asked the “master” would always say he taught them everything and it all comes from Jungyae Moosul, when in fact the “master” is simply a Tae Kwon Do “master”.
Yes the requirements change all the time. This is one thing the Instructors (those still in the system and those that have left) always hated. The “master” wanted to change the system into something easier to teach (at least that is what we were told, it mostly seems like a money thing). So the system was changed from a 10-belt system to an 18-belt system. I did not really have a problem with this when it first happened (thinking it was for the better and not “just” for the money), but the “master” switched with out even finishing the requirements for the new belt system. For example at the Blue belt level, students were supposed to learn Kama and a Kama form. There was no Kama form and we were told: “Just teach them anything they won’t know.” Or “Don’t worry, just show them something else.” At least until they went to testing and the “master” would then yell at the students telling them they are doing it wrong. I personally lost student after I taught something just the way the “master” had showed it to me and then have the “master” tell them at testing that they were doing it all wrong. Say what!?! What would be worse is then the “master” would re-teach us how to do it and it would be exactly what they did at testing –or something the Instructors had never even seen before. Requirements were switched, updated and changed almost every week. You were lucky if you got all the changes or even understood them. I know for a fact this is still happening.
As far as who is selfish and greedy – well let’s look. The “master” kept all the testing fees (minus a very small percentage given to the Instructors, who actually did all the work). He had a Mercedes, a minivan (with all the TV and VCR extras) a new house and would ware $100 shirts all the time; he also supported his wife (who does not have a job), and 2 children. He would often tell the Instructors that they must suffer for the system and not to expect anything, this is the best way. Several of the Instructors lived in their schools; one Instructor did not even own a car! The schools were expected to pay for their own advertising, even though with 7 schools in the WA area, testing would bring in sometimes more than $10,000 every 2 months! Where was that money? I guess the Mercedes needed a check-up. It is also interesting to note that the “master’s” school was really no bigger than the other schools and had the same average number of students. The Instructors also had no health care, no benefits of any kind, but often did extra work for no pay for the glorious Federation (this too is still on going).
Well that is all I have time for right now. So far this is just the basic stuff and yes there is more. A lot of the more stuff is more personal and I want to think it through before posting. Let me know if there are questions and I will do what I can to answer. Just to be fair, please realize that I have been out of Jungyae Moosul for over 6 months now and any information I have on the system would now be second hand.
Posted On:2/26/2003 3:26am
oops forgot to include the link to the first topic (for those that came in late :) )
http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2053&FORUM_ID=2&CAT_ID= 8&Topic_Title=Jungyae+Moosul&Forum_Title=G eneral+Discussion
Posted On:2/26/2003 7:02pm
I too am a former Jungyae instructor and still have several ties on the inside. One of the things that bothered me most about Junyae Moosul or more specifically, the "master" was his lack of humility and his extreme need to controll and be everything. The claim of Jungyae is that it is a "complete" martial art, when in fact it is simply TKD+. This would not be so bad except that when the instructors realized it and wanted to learn new things and new styles to help make the "complete' claims true, they were told that to train with anyone else was "treason" and "un-loyal" to the Jungyae family. For years we were told not to read books, study videos and most importantly never cross the line and learn from anyone else. To top this off, he wasn't teaching us anything. He expected us to just learn everything on our own. Unfortunately for him, many of his instructors did learn from other masters and soon started to realize that the "master" who claimed to teach a "complete" art was doing anything but. No true soft style, no mimicry styles (animal, drunken, etc.., no internal arts, no qigong (he said practicing these things made people crazy), no practical combat (many instructors did teach combat application but the "master" rarely if ever did).
This is the main reason I left:
For someone to not teach me and then think he has any right to tell me I can't learn from someone else is fooling himself completely. No man, and I mean no man has the God given right to tell me what I can and can not learn.
Since my departure, i have spoken with a couple of people still on the inside and have learned that he has seen the light. He has decided to now let instructors learn from whoever they wan't... WITH CERTAIN CONDITIONS
Please keep in mind this is only what I have been told by others.
1. Instructors cannot tell there students they are learning from someone else.
2. Instructors cannot teach anything they have learned.
3. Instructors cannot demonstrate what they have learned to students.
4. If a student happens to see an instructor doing any of these new things and asks about them, the instructor must tell them it was learned from the "master" and is a part of the "complete" jungyae moosul system
What a crock!
I'm sure I will think of more and post it later.
Posted On:2/26/2003 9:01pm
Style: Submission Wrestling.
seems like a bullshido in some ways: but if they were teaching full-contact TKD maybe not..
"Training = pain." - I said that.
PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
Posted On:2/26/2003 11:17pm
Nope. No full contact anything. That's bad for business. The average joe schmoe belt chaser just don't like it.
Posted On:2/26/2003 11:22pm
bullshido? seems more like a cult to me :)
The Man with No Neck
Posted On:2/26/2003 11:41pm
Style: submission wrestling
Hmm, seems similar to some things happening in New Mexico. Some of the local TKD/Karate/KF instructors have started advertising that they teach 'ground-fighting' now. What this means is, they ran down to Barnes and Noble, grabbed the Royler and Renzo Gracie 'Theory and Application of BJJ', read it cover-to-cover and now claim they 'know' submission fighting. I'm kind of torn on the merits of this:
Pro - It's good that more people get exposed to the idea grappling and submissions. It's also the sincerest form of flattery. Plus, people might get a taste and decide to train at Greg Jackson's and learn it the right way.
Con - I hate to see anything taught half-assed. Plus, if people learn from someone like that, there's no telling how many bad habits they'll pick up. It also smacks of dishonesty for a long-time up-fighter to instruct ground fighting when he's never done anything besides read a book and try it out on his senior black belt. I'm sure those instructors make up some story about 'training with some BJJ guys &lt;cough, cough&gt;'.
As for the TKD+ 'master', he sounds like a complete fruit-loop to me. Avoid at all costs, find yourself a new place (devoid of McDojo trappings, of course) and keep on training. Once you know what to look for, it's pretty easy to tell which schools are full of **** and which one's are for real.
"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"
"I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."
- George Plimpton
Posted On:2/26/2003 11:48pm
err ok, it's a bullshido cult, mdojo etc etc..
thjanks for poatin ex jungy - intersting example of a bullshido..
Posted On:2/27/2003 1:12am
Just A quick thought, just to show how backwards the thinking of the “master” is (and yes I constantly put that in quotes because it pains me to actually refer to him as such)
There are all these schools that are rushing to put grappling in and make some claim to the fact that they have it. Jungyae actually had Jujitsu techniques before it became the big buzz. The “master” took it out of the curriculum (the big belt switch thing)saying that people don’t really like that sort of thing and it looks bad (?) - I tried to convince him at one time to put it back; he just said what he would always say if you questioned curriculum:
“You don’t understand the big picture, I know, I see everything and I know what works. You don’t know.”
Well, looking back, I guess I knew enough to get out.
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