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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2009 11:07am

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny13 View Post
    this is turning from an intelligent discussion to cyber name calling.

    it may be true that no one has brought any evidence forward to make him more credible, but why should anyone bother when you've done nothing to make him any less credible?
    Uh oh circular logic and a dead horse.


    I definitely understand what you're trying to say, blindly believing anything you read is naive, and if you have any info to disprove his work then i would honestly love to hear it. I do believe that a lot of what he says is credible, but as you've said I have no proof of it, i myself hate being fooled and if you can disprove anything he puts forth then please do share.

    as for the ninja thing, feudal japan was a very hard place to live if you weren't a samurai. I doubt that the ninja would have survived very long if anyone actually KNEW anything about them. of course this is based off my observations from reading what he puts forth in his books, so again if you can disprove anything he says about ninja history then please do, i find his
    version of it fairly believable though.
    Read a book. Yes, it is that simple. Ninjas were ssssssoooooo secret they wrote themselves out of existence? Please. If they were so prolific, here would be a historical reference somewhere before a fictional story was ever written.
  2. johnny13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 6:08pm

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    what i was trying to say, was that the ninja had neither the manpower nor the money of the samurai, so already fighting from a deficit position they were in no position to fight on even ground with the samurai. therefore it's much harder to fight an enemy that you know nothing about. isn't one of the most basic phrases in martial arts "know thy enemy"? so by taking away that advantage they put themselves on more even ground with the samurai.

    also, if the ninjas' main goal was stealth and hiding from their enemies, the established government of japan (the ones that write historical records), then i'd say it would prove that they are very effective if they don't show up in "historical records"

    as for being aecret mystical warriors, this also goes with putting themsleves on an even footing with the samurai. hunting down a bunch of insurgents is one thing. but the samurai were much less likely to go chasing after "mystical warriors" who can walk on water, walk through walls, become invisible, kill with one touch, etc... in the end it adds up to propaganda. remember this is feudal japan we're talking about, full of tales of demons and ghosts. when things are hard to explain, people often turn to the supernatural, rather than admit that he'd failed his duty and let his lord be assassinated by their enemies, it was much more convenient for a dumbfounded castle guard to say that it was the work of demons.

    they do actually show up in historical records though. oda nobunaga the shogun in 1586 launched several anti-ninja campaigns into the iga and koga regions of japan. ieyasu tokugawa the shogun in the 1600's was notorious for employing ninja as spies and bodyguards.
  3. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 7:56pm

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    Proof? Citation? Anything traceable/verifiable?
    Otherwise it's worthless.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 8:04pm

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    Have you looked? OMG it is a horror show. Funny thing is, if you look at scholarly research, no mention of ninja.


    You look at Wiki and home made websites Iga Ninja and Anime bullshit.

    also, if the ninjas' main goal was stealth and hiding from their enemies, the established government of japan (the ones that write historical records), then i'd say it would prove that they are very effective if they don't show up in "historical records"
    Oh right so, using this logic, why are there lineage scrolls claimed by ninjas? If they were so "secretive' as to avoid historical references, they wouldn't keep these records for generations detailing their art because, they could fall into the wrong hands.

    Yet, we have a **** ton of Ninjas claiming ancient generational lineage scrolls.
  5. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 10:21pm

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    Johnny13, I don't mean to be a dick, but unless you provide some scholarly confirmation that I can cross-reference against historical documents, this is all wishful thinking and opinions.

    I feel I should again clarify: Unless you have solid evidence backed by a credible historian/historians, it's all empty talk. Wishful thinking <> fact. Haha Lung <> credible source, as we can not verify the credibility of someone using a pseudonym (no way to trace where they got their PhD/MD, their martial arts training, their background. etc.) I hope I have made this clear.

    ---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------

    And just because this point needs to be hammered home as many times as it takes...

    YouTube - Martial Arts Myths: Ninjutsu: Addemdum
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 11:08pm

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    That video is the only thing worthwhile posted in this thread.
  7. Shiningwolf is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 11:42pm


     Style: San Shou, MT, & No-Gi BJJ

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    I heard Ninja - The Invisible Assassins was supposedly a great book written on ninjas and their role in Japanese history and basically what they were.
  8. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/20/2009 7:39am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiningwolf View Post
    I heard Ninja - The Invisible Assassins was supposedly a great book written on ninjas and their role in Japanese history and basically what they were.
    If I am not mistaken, that particular title was published in the 1970's, when the ninja craze was just taking off. The author is Andrew Adams. I believe he was mentioned on this thread:
    No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - E-budo thread on Takamatsuden "ninjitsu"

    If I recall correctly, most of the photographs (as well as some of the info) in that particular book were the same as the ones used in Hatsumi's Ninjutsu History and Tradition.

    Here is a google-book link of the said title:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=oLg...esult#PPA89,M1

    Again, it is interesting to see the author describes the "Ninja lifestyle and training" in great detail, despite the fact that it was supposed to be a super hidden secret so hidden, it was a secret.

    It might be good to compare to material by Miek Skoss, and Dave Lowry. I'll do a bit of the reading myself, when I have time.
  9. johnny13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/25/2009 8:26pm

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    i agree completely with the video. just one thing bothered me though. in an earlier post you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee View Post
    I hope this helps steer all our young aspiring ninja from the clutches of this heinous imposter, and back into the loving outstretched arms of Ashida Kim.
    and the video basically pointed out that ashida kim was a hoax.

    on another note, i remembered a book that i have called "Secrets of the Samurai:A survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan" by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. it has a small segement on ninjutsu, about three pages long, (pg 324) and it more or less says the same thing as lung's 'history of the ninja' although his has more details that may or may not be true.

    basically what i have to say is that, yes he uses a pseudonym which is suspicious of itself, but through some light study (very light) and my own personal experience, i can say that he more or less is telling the truth in most things that he writes.

    i'm a marine so i can tell that even if he has no actual eastern martial arts training and only did some light study on ninja, that he likely ha some sort of military experience. he comments often on modern special forces (grenn berets, rangers, SEALS, Spetznaz etc...) as being modern equivalents of ninja.
    his segments on vision/perception/anatomy of the eye, show either military or anatomical experience. he comments on the way that our eyes percieve an object (first movement, then sillouette, lastly color) and how the eye adjusts to the dark by increasing levels of rhodopsin (aka visual purple) which are both well known facts among the special forces communities.

    in his books on mind manipulation, he shows if anything, a basic knowledge of psychology (possibly where the "Dr." comes from if he actually has a PhD) i've taken a high school level class on the subject and plan on getting my bachelors, and hopefully eventually a PhD on the subject, so I at least know enough that he's looked through a few books for his material.

    again, i can't totally prove that he's credible, but i think his books have enough basic knowledge in them that if you don't take them literally, you can't definitely take something positive from them.

    in the end what i'm trying to say is that "Dr. Haha Lung" may or may not be credible, and probably isn't a ninja, but if you look carefully at his books, there are good things to be found. if not then you can laugh at the funny drawings.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2009 10:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny13 View Post
    i'm a marine so i can tell that even if he has no actual eastern martial arts training and only did some light study on ninja, that he likely ha some sort of military experience. he comments often on modern special forces (grenn berets, rangers, SEALS, Spetznaz etc...) as being modern equivalents of ninja.
    his segments on vision/perception/anatomy of the eye, show either military or anatomical experience. he comments on the way that our eyes percieve an object (first movement, then sillouette, lastly color) and how the eye adjusts to the dark by increasing levels of rhodopsin (aka visual purple) which are both well known facts among the special forces communities.
    These are well known facts, period.

    They aren't some super-secret SPECOPS bullshit.

    You're a Marine?

    I call troll.

    You're not a Marine.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny13 View Post
    in his books on mind manipulation, he shows if anything, a basic knowledge of psychology (possibly where the "Dr." comes from if he actually has a PhD) i've taken a high school level class on the subject and plan on getting my bachelors, and hopefully eventually a PhD on the subject, so I at least know enough that he's looked through a few books for his material.
    Which doesn't prove ****.
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