Boztepe goes MMA

**Xango** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 11:51am

I believe Emin started calling his stuff "EBMAS" to get away from exactly the kind of nit-picking Phrost is talking about.

Who CARES if it's still Wing Tsun, or if it becomes an MMA style taught by 'former' or shall we say 'evolved' Wing Tsunners? It's like arguing whether Chuck Liddell does Kempo: stupid.

I'm not sure what Phrost's point is about kool-aid and horse piss; all I know is that the Gracies seem to have endless flexibility to add techniques from wrestling, boxing and muay thai to their Judo base and call it "Gracie Jiu-Jutsu"; Pat Miletich can teach whatever he pleases and it's still MFS; I don't see why it should be different for Emin Boztepe and EBMAS.

**Aesopian** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 12:00pm

I think the difference Phrost is trying to point out is that things like BJJ and MFS don't "add" techniques because there suddenly isn't a market for people to buy them, which is what Emin seems to be doing. The Gracie don't send out memos going "We are going to steal wrestling's reversal and call it mata viado". The art as a whole naturally incorporates any techniques that have success in competition. BJJ does have a ton of other arts mixed in it now, but it is due to natural evolution through high competition, not just realizing your market is shrinking.

**wingchunnewbie** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 12:19pm

Just an example, but most of the techniques twhoever it was mentioned were other stand-up/striking techniques lacking in WC; not the same as training in a grappling art to complement a striking art.

True, but training in some new striking techniques (or even just one, like the hook) doesn't invalidate all the other striking you know.

Don't know anything about it. If they've modified it to include better stuff, great. If they keep on modifying, at some point it will become something else. Sounds like it does invalidate teh Karate forms to a a large extent - why bother doing them if you;re going to use something else?

I dunno, perhaps somebody who does KyoKushin would like to comment ?

My mistake. What are basic WC principles then?

Here are a few, many of which are common to other arts :-

Striking at vertical line running through the opponents centre of gravity so that force isn't wasted by hitting your opponent in a way that turns them as you hit them.

Getting up close to your opponent and keeping the pressure on.

Attack their lower body with your legs and their upper-body/head with your hands.

Kicking with the heel.

Fighting in as 'square on' stance as you can to try and keep your opponent within reach of both your hands.

Elbows.. lots of elbows.

The best way to find out would be to find a WC which spars hard (not easy I'm afraid) and watch them at it for a lesson.

Maybe. I get the impression that a lot of people simply don;t like its techniques either, or at best think they're reinventions of the wheel. I don't know enough about it to say.

Lots of ideas in Wing Chun are shared by other arts. I don't see that as a problem.

The only complaint about a technique I've seen come up is the chain punch, which people say isn't a powerful fight ender. Well, it isn't, but at my school I've only been taught to use them as a distraction to set something else up (it's just a flurry of jabs). People mostly seem to dislike the lack of conditioning and sparring at most Wing Chun schools (I do to). They also seem to mostly dislike claims from certain WC people that they don't need to learn any grappling. I've never been told that WC will teach you to wrestle on the ground, and nobody's ever tried to disuade me from learning to do so from another art should I find the time and money to do so.

**Xango** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 12:19pm

Which brings up another good point, actually: since EBMAS is a rather large organization, Emin going in this direction has the potential to greatly expand the number of people studying a competition-oriented NHB martial arts system.

I don't personally think motivation is relevant in this case; that would be like decrying the entire UFC because it was a ploy to get Rorion some bling. While that was TRUE it was ultimately IRRELEVANT, just as it is largely irrelevant whether Emin Boztepe is doing this because he wants money (possible), to get respect (much more likely IMHO), or simply because after years of doing pure Wing Tsun and following the fight world he recognizes that his art has to change and expand to have any hope of being an effective fighting system.

**Zendetta** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 1:32pm

Originally Posted by Phrost

Do you have video evidence of this "Wing Chun Sparring"? So far we've seen nothing. Hell, there's more video evidence supporting the existence of Bigfoot than there is WC being used practically and exclusively, to win fights.

Oh no He didn't!!!

That "bigfoot" crack may just be the funniest thing I've read on these forums.

**Aesopian** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 1:36pm

Phrost needs to stop stealing my material. I made that Bigfoot crack during ?ing ?un Unappreciation Week.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 1:40pm

See, here is a guy that went out of his way to DIS MMA, then tried to make a buck showing how to defeat the "grapple" and now wants to teach MMA to make more money.

Do I have a problem with this ?
Just the simple fact that he hasn't given credit to where credit is due.

**Zendetta** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 1:44pm

Originally Posted by Aesopian

Phrost needs to stop stealing my material. I made that Bigfoot crack during ?ing ?un Unappreciation Week.

Given your anti-wing chun history and credentials, I believe you completely.

Aren't you the guy who arm-barred Bruce Lee and drank Yip man under the table?

**wingchunnewbie** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 2:29pm

:listen:

Originally Posted by Aesopian

I think the difference Phrost is trying to point out is that things like BJJ and MFS don't "add" techniques because there suddenly isn't a market for people to buy them, which is what Emin seems to be doing. The Gracie don't send out memos going "We are going to steal wrestling's reversal and call it mata viado". The art as a whole naturally incorporates any techniques that have success in competition. BJJ does have a ton of other arts mixed in it now, but it is due to natural evolution through high competition, not just realizing your market is shrinking.

Sure, but that's only relevant to Emin in particular, not WC people in general who want to cross-train and do MMA sparring. Do you consider me to 'no longer be doing Wing Chun' because I also train in kickboxing ? I can assure you that I didn't take it up because I thought I'd get rich :listen:

**wingchunnewbie** · Posted On: 2/25/2005 2:33pm

Originally Posted by ronin69

See, here is a guy that went out of his way to DIS MMA, then tried to make a buck showing how to defeat the "grapple" and now wants to teach MMA to make more money.

Do I have a problem with this ?
Just the simple fact that he hasn't given credit to where credit is due.

Yep. Boztepe is a hypocrit who beats up old men just because they called him a name. Doesn't mean it's a bad idea for Wing Chunners in general to cross-train and practice hard MMA sparring.