Getting to the bottom of Shaolin-do

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 8:25am

Originally Posted by Samuel Browning

I think the relevent question is as follows, assuming roughly compatible karate dojos, which would the newbie be better served by, the one with the highly questionable stories, or the one that does not tell tall tales. I'd go with the second but you can of course argue that it does not make a difference and there is no cross over negative effect. Incidently this could be called the Chris Cluggston argument :).

I can understand this position, but I cannot assume roughly comparable dojos or kwoons. I think the training is not only comparable, but exceeds many TMA. I've tried other styles and I make it a point to work out with various JMA and CMA people. I've even tried a little BJJ which was excellent and I would recommend cross-training to anyone. But the work-out, practical training, forms-work and atmosphere are excellent even if you need several grains of salt with story time.

The bullshido in SD isn't the training. You can talk about history, lineage, and the origins of the arts that are represented in SD. SD is it's own animal--it's own brand of martial art and it's pretty good.

Besides, if you start digging into many well-respected TMA lineages and history, you'll start to uncover some myth and legend passed down as fact. SD is a little more obvious, but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

BTW, Samuel, what type of law do you practice?

**MichaelDescado** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 9:50am

I just read those links posted by Master Killer about Iron Palm and Sand Burn palm.

Painful.......

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 11:08am

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

SD is a little more obvious, but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Or you could melt it like Mr. The.

**Locu5** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 11:50am

h4rh4rh4r th3 m3l7s b4b1e5.

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 12:24pm

Your reading comprehension skills astound me E.R.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 1:09pm

It has been said before and I think it needs to be repeated. Most people wouldn't have a problem if it was caled what it represents, Karate or Kung Tao. I think the fighting and training is good, like JP. That being said if I wanted Karate I would've taken Karate. I think that is what makes it fraudulent and the mass marketing schemes of some schools(CSC mainly).

It is sad when you pay a certain amount a month but to advance you have to take all of these special classes. I do think there is some kung fu mixed in but, I wonder if it is Shaolin-Do or what I've gheard books, notes and students that have studied under different master. The reason I say this is because I know of a few Masters who lest to study under internal masters because they weren't getting what they needed in Shaolin-Do. These are Associate Masters, Masters, and Senior Masters. No, this isn't hearsay I was recommended some during a festival in Shaolin-Do(no not CSC).

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 2:43pm

I think some Masters did cross-train especially after Sin The left Kentucky for Hollywood. The thing is, I didn't care what it was called, karate, kung fu, kung tao, when I started. It was the best option for MA in a place of limited options. I trained, received black belt, and stopped training. I trained under several different arts before I came back because I found my current teacher. He is the best teacher I've had as far as internal principles, external conditioning, and applications/fighting.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 3:45pm

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

I think some Masters did cross-train especially after Sin The left Kentucky for Hollywood. The thing is, I didn't care what it was called, karate, kung fu, kung tao, when I started. It was the best option for MA in a place of limited options. I trained, received black belt, and stopped training. I trained under several different arts before I came back because I found my current teacher. He is the best teacher I've had as far as internal principles, external conditioning, and applications/fighting.

Yeah, but that is you. If someone is looking for traditional Mantis and that is what you are offering that it is what you should teach. See, you stopped and you are back so, you can add other things to increase the flavor. If all you have taken is SD and you realize things are lacking and you were never told that, it is fraud (IMO).

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 4:16pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake??

Yeah, but that is you. If someone is looking for traditional Mantis and that is what you are offering that it is what you should teach. See, you stopped and you are back so, you can add other things to increase the flavor. If all you have taken is SD and you realize things are lacking and you were never told that, it is fraud (IMO).

I don't consider it a fraud, but a variation. I have a version of manits and I've seen other versions of it from PM people. It's different but the principles are there if they are taught right. The problem I have with SD is that they are often taught wrong. There's too many forms that all run together so you don't get the distinguishing flavor of the different styles represented.

That's not to say you can't. If you find a good teacher, preferrable one that was in it 20 years ago when things were taught more thoroughly, and that teacher isn't pushing everyone to test every 3 or 4 months, then you can learn correctly in SD.

If some of them have went out and compared their stuff to others and gained perspectives that help them teach the material then what is wrong with that? I would say that any good teacher of any TMA should do that. For example, I had learned SD's Classical PaKua form (but hadn't put the time to understand the applications of principles). Then I studied with an Aikido guy and that form opened up to me. It was a perspective that I didn't have. Now, when my current teacher teaches applications out of Pa Kua I smile to myself because it's the same stuff I discovered on my own. The fact that he teaches it without having studied Aikido like I have makes me know that I have a good teacher. All he ever learned was SD.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/16/2005 4:27pm

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

I don't consider it a fraud, but a variation. I have a version of manits and I've seen other versions of it from PM people. It's different but the principles are there if they are taught right. The problem I have with SD is that they are often taught wrong. There's too many forms that all run together so you don't get the distinguishing flavor of the different styles represented.

That's not to say you can't. If you find a good teacher, preferrable one that was in it 20 years ago when things were taught more thoroughly, and that teacher isn't pushing everyone to test every 3 or 4 months, then you can learn correctly in SD.

If some of them have went out and compared their stuff to others and gained perspectives that help them teach the material then what is wrong with that? I would say that any good teacher of any TMA should do that. For example, I had learned SD's Classical PaKua form (but hadn't put the time to understand the applications of principles). Then I studied with an Aikido guy and that form opened up to me. It was a perspective that I didn't have. Now, when my current teacher teaches applications out of Pa Kua I smile to myself because it's the same stuff I discovered on my own. The fact that he teaches it without having studied Aikido like I have makes me know that I have a good teacher. All he ever learned was SD.

Right so after all that except for the fraud you agree. Okay, I'll use variationn it does sound better. You have the perspective to add your own flavor. Again it took you going outside of the art FiRST, for it to open up. 20 years is kind of funny. I know people who have been in that long and longer who don't teach what you've learned.

I see what your saying but you are missing one important part. Many people won't move to find a reputable teacher. Yes there are bad teachers but as an orginization that is what makes it a MCDOJO. There is no real quality control. Yes, that can be said about many other McDojos but, we are talking Shaolin-Do.

If I recall who your teacher is he is good, he also was one of the ones that told me to look outside the art for help.