Getting to the bottom of Shaolin-do

**Locu5** · Posted On: 3/06/2005 4:24am

The difference between such 'master' stories and the melting story, is that Sin is spreading his own bullshit. What you call "color" I call delusional.

I hear what you are saying and definitely respect your opinion. This would be a very valid factor for anyone, I believe, seeking him as a personal teacher. Of course it could also be argued that with such a start the entire art's material, etc is not legitimate. Meh, if history, t3h real kung fu, etc mattered to me, I might take pause, but my sifu is not GM The. All the same, GM The does have my respect in the MAist that he turned out in my sifu and his teacher.

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 7:32am

Pumpkin King:

BS. This is not some linked school where every teacher in the country teaches the same thing all over the country. Maybe it's that way under the Soards or another Master, but it's not that way under my teacher. I have not had any direct dealings with the west or the Soards' students, but it's done differently under Master Mullins.

As for the baby burning thing, I could care less whether it's true or not. I responded to the "melting" part of the story which is not the way it was told to me. If it's not true, then it doesn't change my opinon. I can fight with what I've been taught and it took me from January 1989 to October 1992: Not 15 months.

Do some people get their BB less? Probably, but it's not some grand plan by Sin The and up to the teacher who is teaching the material.

**Omar** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 7:52am

Originally Posted by Samuel Browning

The difference between such 'master' stories and the melting story, is that Sin is spreading his own bullshit. What you call "color" I call delusional.

Just worth repeating.

I think the whole title of this thread is really comical. "getting to the bottom of Shaolin-Do" . . . as if there was a mystery. lol It's all made up from top to bottom. The only "bottom" of it you could possibly dream of finding is what kind of Karate or TKD or whatever the hell this clown in Kentucky actually trained in before he created the fiction.

There's no possible connection with the Shaolin temple, no real Chinese stuff being taught there and no one with any real connection to either Shaolin or any other legitimate TCMA takes them seriously. I can't believe anyone even debates that. I CAN understand why some people still train at their schools because the franchise is so big I am sure there are a few decent school here and there. Just understand.....

You are NOT learning Shaolin Kungfu or any of the Wudang traditions allegedly taught there. You are learning the art created by a clever American who may or may not have been a decent martial artist.

**Judge Pen** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 10:33am

Originally Posted by Omar

You are NOT learning Shaolin Kungfu or any of the Wudang traditions allegedly taught there. You are learning the art created by a clever American who may or may not have been a decent martial artist.

He trained in Indonesia. A huge melting pot of CMA, JMA, and IMA. I can't and won't argue history/lineage; no documentation to support it. I can say the material is good even if it doesn't look like other styles. He didn't create it: he is teaching what he was taught. The material is its own creature and, if taught right, the material isn't bullshido. Some is close to other CMA styles: Hua comes to mind.

I'd match it up agaisnt other traditional stand-up martial arts out there as far as intensity and worthwhile. I wouldn't match it up against people training to fight competitively because the training methods and intent are differently. It's a TMA with self-defense and personal edification in mind. You can fight with it, but the majority don't train copmpetively.

**Anthracis** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 2:05pm

Does the term "bullshit" translate into chinese?? That's what I think of Shaolin Do. Even bonified Shaolin fighting monks aren't skilled fighters. They admire western boxing (see articles from Antonio Graceffo).

**Anthracis** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 2:08pm

By the way Antonio Graceffo went to china and studied at the shaolin temple (not the ones in the tourist village...in other words, not the bullshit ones that everyone from schools like shaolin do visit). He found that the fighting monks were very disciplined but lacked any real fighting skills.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 5:08pm

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

As for the baby burning thing, I could care less whether it's true or not. I responded to the "melting" part of the story which is not the way it was told to me. If it's not true, then it doesn't change my opinon.

.

Ah, but if I was your client in a criminal matter and told you this story in court, right before we appeared in front of a judge, you would probably feel obliged to request a competency hearing.

How ridiculous does a martial arts story have to be before it would influence your opinion of the grandmaster?

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 5:19pm

Originally Posted by Anthracis

By the way Antonio Graceffo went to china and studied at the shaolin temple (not the ones in the tourist village...in other words, not the bullshit ones that everyone from schools like shaolin do visit). He found that the fighting monks were very disciplined but lacked any real fighting skills.

You are repeating nothing new. It is hard to find a good teacher in China that doesn't teach Modern Wushu.

What people tend to forget is once you are entrenched in an art it is hard to let go. It is hard to realize the time you have wasted.

Yeah the stories are BS. I remember when BJJ was first gaining acceptance, Helio was an undefeated fighter. He NEVER lost a fight. No this isn't ludacriss like melting babies but, a lie is a lie. Yes I know there are degrees (Unless you are stupid your wife ISN"T fat if she asks) I'm just saying there are embelishments in all arts. Some people just take it to damn far (GM Sin The').

**Omar** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 5:23pm

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

He trained in Indonesia. A huge melting pot of CMA, JMA, and IMA. ....

Like I said, you could find out what sort of TKD or Karate or whatever MA is is actualy based on.

The material is its own creature...

You got that right.

I'd match it up agaisnt other traditional stand-up martial arts out there as far as intensity and worthwhile. I wouldn't match it up against people training to fight competitively because the training methods and intent are differently. It's a TMA with self-defense and personal edification in mind. You can fight with it, but the majority don't train copmpetively.

Again matching perfectly with what I said:

I CAN understand why some people still train at their schools because the franchise is so big I am sure there are a few decent school here and there. Just understand.....

You are NOT learning Shaolin Kungfu or any of the Wudang traditions allegedly taught there. You are learning the art created by a clever American who may or may not have been a decent martial artist.

SO some guy trained for a while in Indonesia picking up a hodgepodge or different styles and then opened up a school in Kentiucky. He proceeded to make up some crazy ass story based on Chinese folklore, expand and standardize the curriculum and created an incredibly solid business model which had shown incredible sucess and due to the VAST numbers of students in it and the large number of schools they have produced a few decent martial artists here and there which is no suprise. Even TKD which is really very basic and doesn't need any crazy background story or a billion and one "styles" produces the occasional fighter and has plenty of good schools around.

The marketing, the endless forms, the made up history, the presence of every damn style known to man under one roof and the lack of any of the qualities that define any of those styles all together make Shaolin Do a big stinking pile of bullshit.

Sounds bad but this is Bullshido. I am almost relieved to have this topic come up here where I don't have to worry about being flamed for saying what I actually think about this ridiculous crock.

I just don't see what else there is to add.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/07/2005 5:38pm

Do you really feel this way Omar.

I agree with you on the student aspect. Even bad schools can produce good fighters.

What students miss is the "fit any situation" of SD. Karate to cash in on the Ke?po craze. Kung fu for the Wushu phase. Then Shaolin to capitolize on the Shaolin phase. Now, some schools have teachers who were BB in judo/JJ/BJJ and are suddenly doing down and ground.