Getting to the bottom of Shaolin-do

**Locu5** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 11:13am

If I may, I would like to provide what perspective I can. First, I do not believe the story about the sandburn teacher and the infant is true, or meant to be. No more than I believe in the other color stories of past masters, etc. IMHO, it speaks more to the culture and how they romanticize / embellish them. I know it provides a source of amusement and derision for the art, and that is unfortunate. Though, as I said before, GM The brings a large polarizing force to people viewing, criticizing, judging the art, etc. I do not have any kind of relationship with GM The to give an honest opinion on him one way or the other, though I have been impressed with how he moves. I can only judge his quality as a MAist by the students he has turned out in my sifu and his teacher; they are both excellent martial artists and have my respect.

In the CSC*, the brown belt material is taught on a rotation that takes about 18 months to complete. These "special classes" occur annually, and are essentially supplemental conditioning tests and sparring classes. You will not get to a formal test in front of GM The unless you first are evaluated by a member of that rank and pass a pre-test with the school's chief instructor. If you are no ready to test, you will not be allowed to test; this is in part for QC and to make sure the chief instructor doesn't lose face. Depending on the person I would say the 1st degree black belt takes 2.5 years on average and as said before is considered more of a beginning than a destination goal. In all honesty, each system assigns its own "weight" to a BB, so I am not really sure where the consternation about the time in CSC or SD for a BB comes from. But, I respect the opinion. also understand that some have felt cheated or disillusioned by their experience in the system (as can happen) and hope they have found a better place to train and grow.

*I too have wondered about the SD vs. CSC thing, but to be honest, do not really care.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 1:28pm

Originally Posted by locu5

If I may, I would like to provide what perspective I can. First, I do not believe the story about the sandburn teacher and the infant is true, or meant to be. No more than I believe in the other color stories of past masters, etc. IMHO, it speaks more to the culture and how they romanticize / embellish them. I know it provides a source of amusement and derision for the art, and that is unfortunate. Though, as I said before, GM The brings a large polarizing force to people viewing, criticizing, judging the art, etc. I do not have any kind of relationship with GM The to give an honest opinion on him one way or the other, though I have been impressed with how he moves. I can only judge his quality as a MAist by the students he has turned out in my sifu and his teacher; they are both excellent martial artists and have my respect.

In the CSC*, the brown belt material is taught on a rotation that takes about 18 months to complete. These "special classes" occur annually, and are essentially supplemental conditioning tests and sparring classes. You will not get to a formal test in front of GM The unless you first are evaluated by a member of that rank and pass a pre-test with the school's chief instructor. If you are no ready to test, you will not be allowed to test; this is in part for QC and to make sure the chief instructor doesn't lose face. Depending on the person I would say the 1st degree black belt takes 2.5 years on average and as said before is considered more of a beginning than a destination goal. In all honesty, each system assigns its own "weight" to a BB, so I am not really sure where the consternation about the time in CSC or SD for a BB comes from. But, I respect the opinion. also understand that some have felt cheated or disillusioned by their experience in the system (as can happen) and hope they have found a better place to train and grow.

*I too have wondered about the SD vs. CSC thing, but to be honest, do not really care.

You are wrong about the CSC. 12 months=14 forms, it isn't an 18 month rotation. You have to go by their schedule not the list of forms required. There are 2 forms taught in 2 different months, the other 10 months are one form a piece. This is fact. The forms are not on a 18 month rotation. Yes, some people do take longer for various reasons not connected to the CSC (life). The special classes are taught every six months. It doesn't matter when you test until 1st Black. If you test in Aug. 2005 you'll test in July 2007. If you test in Nov.2005 you'll test in July 2008. Now, there are exceptions. I would say the average is between 15-18 months I know very few 2 year blacks let alone 2 1/2. The required courses are taught on a 6 month rotation. It isn't Shaolin-Do as one huge group as Pumpkin King is saying. It is CSC he is talking about in that he is right. He is right though because CSC=Shaolin-Do as material.

This is all based on the CSC/West. The CSC's were established out West by the Soards. Your school is afiliated with the Soards in name only, it is tied more to the Kentucky Shaolin-Do curriculum. Pumpkin king is refering to the Original CSC's here on the west coast.

**Locu5** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 6:53pm

I find that very interesting. In all honesty, I am not well versed in the differences in how the schools give out the material. I will rescind my statements, in light of this. I can only speak for what I know of how my school is run (and even then I am not authoritative). From the advancement information on my intranet, a minimum of 6 months must be spent at each of the three degrees of brown belt; technical punching and kicking, ying-yang conditioning, brownbelt sparring, and the i-chin ching final are held annually here. My previous, "meh who cares, BB has different weights in different systems" stands.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 7:54pm

See, I actually respect that. That was why I was putting up the info. I wish it was like that on the West. It would make for a lot less disgruntled people. Once upon a time it was just like that in the west.

**Leodom** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 8:00pm

I know nothing of CSC. If it is done as you say, I'll take your word for it. It is obviously not universal to SD.

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 9:55pm

Originally Posted by locu5

If I may, I would like to provide what perspective I can. First, I do not believe the story about the sandburn teacher and the infant is true, or meant to be. No more than I believe in the other color stories of past masters, etc. IMHO, it speaks more to the culture and how they romanticize / embellish them. I know it provides a source of amusement and derision for the art, and that is unfortunate. .

The difference between such 'master' stories and the melting story, is that Sin is spreading his own bullshit. What you call "color" I call delusional.

**Pumpkin King** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 10:44pm

Originally Posted by Leodom

THIS ENTIRE POST IS BULLSHIT AND INCORRECT!! There is really too much mis-information here to properly deal with.

Please provide a link to the web-sites of which Shaolin-Do schools are teaching 15 month BB.

Most will dictate a minimum of 3 months between belt levels from white to 3rd brown, 6 months minimum through the levels of brown belt to black. If followed, this is a minimum of 2-1/2 years. I've never met anyone who actually did it in this short a timeframe.

All schools teaching the same material at the same time--BS. Perhaps there are some school owners / masters who have their schools do that, but it is not universal.

Soards, Sin The', and possibly Leonard being the "only" people who can administer tests -- BS.

Black Belt tests only twice a year -- BS

Sin The' handing out all black belts -- BS

The implication that you can test for multiple levels at once -- BS

Where did you get your mis-information?

Sorry that I failed to contextualize a few things- but this -is- the way the schools in the West are run. To clarify a few things...

In the West, all the brown belt and most of the black classes run on the same schedule- 14 forms in 12 months (for brown belts) , followed by BB testing in September and July. The black belts have a different forma rotation, but each year during certain months, all of the Western schools will be teaching the sam ething. Theoretically, this means you can go to any school in the system and pick up your taining, uninterrupted. At least that was the explanation given to me when I asked why they would do this. You can investigate a current schedule at www.kungfuworks.com - it's the Boise school, and from what I understand it runs just like the schools in Colorado and Nevada. I would imagine that that also extends to the Utah school and the ones in California, but I haven't confirmed this. Also note that the Western schools aren't affiliated with the Shaolin-Do Assocation (SDA). Perhaps things are done differently with the Chinese Shaolin Centers (CSC). Anyone?

As for the testing, my implication was that Sin The' and David and Sharon Soard (and possibly Bill Leonard) can test students for their BB rank and above- 1st black on up. I didn't mean to imply that the other instructors couldn't test the students into lower ranks. The twice a year BB test may also only apply to schools in the West. Again, this may be a Western phenomenon. But, with that system, you -have- to recieve your BB from Sin The' or David and Sharon. I haven't heard anything different, but I've had little exposure to the schools east of Colorado.

And, finally, if you approach testing time and have enough material to test from 3rd brown to 1st black, it IS allowed. I've seen it. Although you usually see a double test from 2nd brown to 1st brown to 1st black. However, you CAN'T test for multiple levels of black at once. So no 1st to 3rd degree black, etc. And- I haven't seen anyone that has been denied testing privileges due to lack of preparation- since I've never gone to Denver to see the 2nd degree and above tests (for 2nd and above you have to test in Denver. West again?) I can't say for those, but the lower level tests are encouraged almost as soon as material is committed to memory. I've literally seen a belt learn their last techniqure in class and then test immediately afterward. I heard that it was different in the Kentucky school- but I haven't been bothered to fly there and investigate.

Hope that clears things a bit.

**Leodom** · Posted On: 3/05/2005 10:57pm

My apologies.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/06/2005 12:37am

Originally Posted by Pumpkin King

I would imagine that that also extends to the Utah school and the ones in California, but I haven't confirmed this. Also note that the Western schools aren't affiliated with the Shaolin-Do Assocation (SDA). Perhaps things are done differently with the Chinese Shaolin Centers (CSC). Anyone?

San Jose, Utah, and Northridge only. The other Cali school is under Shaolin-Do.

Originally Posted by Pumpkin King

The twice a year BB test may also only apply to schools in the West. Again, this may be a Western phenomenon. But, with that system, you -have- to recieve your BB from Sin The' or David and Sharon. I haven't heard anything different, but I've had little exposure to the schools east of Colorado.
And, finally, if you approach testing time and have enough material to test from 3rd brown to 1st black, it IS allowed. I've seen it. Although you usually see a double test from 2nd brown to 1st brown to 1st black. However, you CAN'T test for multiple levels of black at once. So no 1st to 3rd degree black, etc. And- I haven't seen anyone that has been denied testing privileges due to lack of preparation- since I've never gone to Denver to see the 2nd degree and above tests (for 2nd and above you have to test in Denver. West again?) I can't say for those, but the lower level tests are encouraged almost as soon as material is committed to memory. I've literally seen a belt learn their last techniqure in class and then test immediately afterward. I heard that it was different in the Kentucky school- but I haven't been bothered to fly there and investigate.
Hope that clears things a bit.

Yes, this is true for the west schools. Don't know about Shaolin-Do/Master Leonard. If you travel you can test (with all material) to BB at any GM The' or MD or MS festival. So, it is twice a year at your home school or more chances if you travel. 3rd Brown to 1st Black was a fluke it isn't allowed anymore. This is why I say 15-18 months to get a BB now. This whole paragraph is dead on.