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  1. Leodom is offline

    Dad

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    1,146

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 12:18pm


     Style: CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by octopic
    Seriously enough though, while I agree that 15 months is absurd beyond all belief, I do think that 3.5 years is not enough time as well. It is all a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, a black belt in one style does not equal a black belt in another...Comparing time to black belt isn't going to get you anywhere, so just leave it alone.
    He wasn't really comparing time to get a blackbelt. He was correcting another's incorrect assertion that the time to black-belt in Shaolin-Do is 15 months.

    From my little bit of experience, it appears that different styles place different levels of importance on "Black-Belt". For some, it's the pinnacle, the completion, you now know everything the style has to offer, now you get to perfect it. For others, I suspect, it represents a basic level of "mastery" upon which to build and possibly specialize.
    People of integrity expect to be believed. When they're not, they let time prove them right.
  2. bamboo is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2004
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    canada, ottawa
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    32

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 12:31pm


     Style: Rhetoric

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In 1964, Master Sin was preparing to go to Germany to study engineering and physics. He had added German to the multitude of languages that he could speak. Yet the Berlin crisis altered his plans
    If hes going to make up a lie, at least he could research the truth. The "Berlin crisis" ended in 1962.


    -bamboo
  3. Judge Pen is offline

    Registered Member

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    May 2004
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
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    76

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 1:36pm


     Style: shaolin-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sand-burn: I have no experience in this. I have experience in Iron hand training. I've seen things that only come about through intense conditioning and training. It's possible that a "master" or "teacher" in sandburn could get his hands hot enough to cause 2nd degree burns on an infant with sensitive skin. In Indonesia in the 1940s that could cause a fatal infection. It's possible. It's also possible that the whole thing was a tall tale. I don't know. I'm sure the baby wasn't melted.

    Black Belt: Sure I think that 3.5 years is probably too quick too, but it happens. Yes, I had some previous marrtial arts background, but nothing major. And if took me another 10 years before I advanced to the rank of second degree. I made sure that I took my time. And Leodum, you hit the nail on the head. At black in SD you have the basics at best. It's the line from beginner to student.
  4. Sam Browning is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,845

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 6:11pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "It's possible that a "master" or "teacher" in sandburn could get his hands hot enough to cause 2nd degree burns on an infant with sensitive skin."

    How do you know? Testing or previous experience with a sandburn master grabbing your arm after training and burning said arm?

    If someone tells a unbelievable story, then the burden is on them to prove the story, the more ridiculous, the more proof should be necessary.

    Basically, if the story is not true then the master is delusional about at least one aspect of martial arts training. Unlike Sting babbling about tantric sex while drunk, (which has nothing to do with his music) Sin's story has a martial arts context and is therefore relevant to his believability as a teacher.

    I do not know about you, but if I was studying with a skilled practicioner who lied about his MA background or techniques, I would not be able to study with him because I could not trust him to provide honest information.
  5. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 6:20pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen
    The melted baby story I've heard first hand. Actually he didn't say "melt" when I heard it, but he likes to embellish his stories. Anyway, the story goes that his first teacher, a sand-burn teacher, was practicing when his wife brought their child over. Without thinking about how hot his hands were he picked up the child and the child was burnt by his hands: killing the child. That's why he stopeed training in sand-burn.

    GM The's english isn't the best: melt or burn it's probably the same to him.

    Sorry JP it is out of his mouth right on the DVD At the feet of the GMT. Actually your story sounds less believable that the one on the DVD. His wife would know the consequences so, she never would've handed him the baby. IMO.
  6. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 6:35pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodom
    He wasn't really comparing time to get a blackbelt. He was correcting another's incorrect assertion that the time to black-belt in Shaolin-Do is 15 months.

    From my little bit of experience, it appears that different styles place different levels of importance on "Black-Belt". For some, it's the pinnacle, the completion, you now know everything the style has to offer, now you get to perfect it. For others, I suspect, it represents a basic level of "mastery" upon which to build and possibly specialize.

    Unfortunately Shaolin-Do is a wide system. Yes, I talked with this guy. He is right about the 15 month BB. It is true. The probelm is people have to seperate Shaolin-Do/SDA from Chinese Shaolin Centers as businesses. They are unnder Shaolin-Do/GM Sin The' yet, they are run completely different. COMPLETELY. This is a common occurence in CSC. I can't and won't speak on Shaolin-Do schools (non-csc) because I don't know. I will say this it is a point of tension between the 2 orgs.

    What makes it confusing is if you read the forward in both manuals, SDA or CSC, they both hace a Shaolin-Do copyright. That is why people use Shaolin-Do to describe both when they are ran different.
  7. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Oct 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    4,249

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 6:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm trying to picture this....

    The MAster: HAH!....*tsssss*....HAH!....*tsssss*....

    The sweat drips off his brow and he thrusts hismedicinally bl;akcened hands into the fire heated pot of sand.

    HAH!....*hrnnng*.....HAH!.....*ssss*....

    He focuses his breath and concentrates his qi to pretect his hands from the temperatures that would cause serious injury to ordinary mortals but only forge his hands in to deadly weapons and then....

    "Ah....hon?....could you hold Jr. for a sec I think he needs a diaper..."

    "Erm....OK?"

    "Waaakkkhh!!....erg...gurgle.....blister....."

    "Honey! The baby?!?@?1/ its......its.......MELTING!!!! AaAAHAAAHHHHhhHH!!! take it back! Quick! Take it back.....oh no....too......late......*sob*"
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  8. Cato is offline

    Lightweight

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    Feb 2005
    Location
    Stockholm/Sweden
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    133

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 8:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shorinjikempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its scary that today, in year 2005, people belive in such stupid stories. With just a little bit of logic everyone should understand that burning a baby to death with hot hands is fiction. Iīm honestly shocked that some people donīt discard that story 100%. If people is that stupid itīs understandable that bullshido and Mcdojos exists and will continue to do so.
  9. Pumpkin King is offline

    Chemically unstable.

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    Jan 2005
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    Boise, ID
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    44

    Posted On:
    3/04/2005 11:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To clarify an earlier post- you CAN, in fact, get a black belt in Shaolin-Do in 15 months. Provided that you test into brown belt at the right time of year. The system at SD works in such a way that all the schools teach all the same material at the same time from the brown belt level upward. So in the month of July, all over the United States there are brown belts in Shaolin-DO waving large, poorly built "kwan-dao" around. The black belt level works very much the same way. In this month or that month, they all learn the *same* thing. It's very cookie cutter in that respect. In fact, to advance beyond the 1st degree black level, you have to wait around until 'special classes' are taught. Usually on a several-year rotation. If you test for black on the wrong year, you might have to wait an additional year to 'learn' some other 'skill' you need to advance to 2nd, and so on. To legitimize the time requirement, they have a graduated time requirement. To go from 1st black to 2nd requires 2 years in 1st, 2nd to 3rd requires 3 years in 2nd, etc. Which is the *only* explananation, given the pace of the material, that it takes 20 years to get to 5th degree (of 10). That, and it means that these guys that are waiting around for a class that comes every four years have to pay fees for what is essetially only reviewing material. It really is a clever system...

    Back to the black belt in 15 months. That's 450 days of possible training time, but at 3 times a week it's more like 180. So if you trained every day for 6 months, you would have a Shaolin-DO BB. Here's how. The first three belts- yellow, blue, and green are made up of about 80 short techniques (qin-na, Ippons, short kata), and about a half dozen forms. These, if you are so inclined, can be learned and tested at the rate of about one belt per month. IF you entered the 3rd brown ranks in either September or May, you would then have a 15 month BB. You see, BB tests are also only conducted twice a year. If you miss the date, you have to wait as many as 6 months to test- but if you were to start in September or May, you would have completed the 12th month of the brown belt material in the same month as Sin The' (or David and Sharon Soard)'s visit (which, to my knowledge are the only three people in the whole system with the authority to conduct testing, unless Bill Leonard has recently been added to that list) they (the student) could shotgun the May/September material and take the test. Since I have only heard of a handful of people in the entire system having *ever* failed a test (no doubt some positive reinforcement ploy, $$$ is positive, for example) that student would then become a 1st degree BB. And the best part, is that Sin The' *himself* gives these BB's out. I'll spare you explaining the implications of that. BB, 15 months. It can be done.
  10. Leodom is offline

    Dad

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    1,146

    Posted On:
    3/05/2005 10:30am


     Style: CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pumpkin King
    To clarify an earlier post- you CAN, in fact, get a black belt in Shaolin-Do in 15 months. Provided that you test into brown belt at the right time of year. The system at SD works in such a way that all the schools teach all the same material at the same time from the brown belt level upward. So in the month of July, all over the United States there are brown belts in Shaolin-DO waving large, poorly built "kwan-dao" around. The black belt level works very much the same way. In this month or that month, they all learn the *same* thing. It's very cookie cutter in that respect. In fact, to advance beyond the 1st degree black level, you have to wait around until 'special classes' are taught. Usually on a several-year rotation. If you test for black on the wrong year, you might have to wait an additional year to 'learn' some other 'skill' you need to advance to 2nd, and so on. To legitimize the time requirement, they have a graduated time requirement. To go from 1st black to 2nd requires 2 years in 1st, 2nd to 3rd requires 3 years in 2nd, etc. Which is the *only* explananation, given the pace of the material, that it takes 20 years to get to 5th degree (of 10). That, and it means that these guys that are waiting around for a class that comes every four years have to pay fees for what is essetially only reviewing material. It really is a clever system...

    Back to the black belt in 15 months. That's 450 days of possible training time, but at 3 times a week it's more like 180. So if you trained every day for 6 months, you would have a Shaolin-DO BB. Here's how. The first three belts- yellow, blue, and green are made up of about 80 short techniques (qin-na, Ippons, short kata), and about a half dozen forms. These, if you are so inclined, can be learned and tested at the rate of about one belt per month. IF you entered the 3rd brown ranks in either September or May, you would then have a 15 month BB. You see, BB tests are also only conducted twice a year. If you miss the date, you have to wait as many as 6 months to test- but if you were to start in September or May, you would have completed the 12th month of the brown belt material in the same month as Sin The' (or David and Sharon Soard)'s visit (which, to my knowledge are the only three people in the whole system with the authority to conduct testing, unless Bill Leonard has recently been added to that list) they (the student) could shotgun the May/September material and take the test. Since I have only heard of a handful of people in the entire system having *ever* failed a test (no doubt some positive reinforcement ploy, $$$ is positive, for example) that student would then become a 1st degree BB. And the best part, is that Sin The' *himself* gives these BB's out. I'll spare you explaining the implications of that. BB, 15 months. It can be done.

    THIS ENTIRE POST IS BULLSHIT AND INCORRECT!! There is really too much mis-information here to properly deal with.

    Please provide a link to the web-sites of which Shaolin-Do schools are teaching 15 month BB.

    Most will dictate a minimum of 3 months between belt levels from white to 3rd brown, 6 months minimum through the levels of brown belt to black. If followed, this is a minimum of 2-1/2 years. I've never met anyone who actually did it in this short a timeframe.

    All schools teaching the same material at the same time--BS. Perhaps there are some school owners / masters who have their schools do that, but it is not universal.

    Soards, Sin The', and possibly Leonard being the "only" people who can administer tests -- BS.

    Black Belt tests only twice a year -- BS

    Sin The' handing out all black belts -- BS

    The implication that you can test for multiple levels at once -- BS

    Where did you get your mis-information?
    People of integrity expect to be believed. When they're not, they let time prove them right.
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