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  1. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:51am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Long Overdue: Ryron Gracie vs Marc Laimon

    Let us travel back in time to October 2004.

    Interesting parts FLAMING RED!

    Marc Laimon Interview - Prequel to Gracie vs. Laimon Superfight

    GRACIE vs. LAIMON - Part 1 Interview from Marc Laimon

    Brian Cimins: Marc Laimon, in less than 4 weeks, will participate in the Grappling Superfight of the Year, but more importantly, The Grappling Superfight of his career. How does it make you feel to participate in what many are calling the Submission Grappling Superfight of the Year: Ryron Gracie vs. Marc Laimon at Grapplers Quest West VI on Saturday, November 6th in Las Vegas, Nevada (http://www.Grapplers.com)?

    Marc Laimon: I am very excited to be fighting in Las Vegas at Grapplers Quest, the premier West Coast Grappling promotion. I am also anxious to show the world my skills on the mat.

    Brian Cimins: How long have you been training for this match and what are you doing differently to prepare for Ryron Gracie?

    Marc Laimon: I have been training since September 1st, 2004 specifically for this match. I have brought in some very good training partners to push me in my training. I also have access to some of the best individuals in the industry to help my strength and conditioning.

    Brian Cimins: What does fighting a Gracie mean for you and your career?

    Marc Laimon: Fighting a Gracie means that I get to show that you can be a white guy from Wisconsin, and still have good jiu-jitsu. Both Ryron and myself are the 1st generation of Jiu-Jitsu, from the U.S. It will be interesting to see if Rorion's method of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will prevail, or will a white guy with a bunch of tapes, who still maintains a whitebelt mentality, will win.

    Brian Cimins: Didn't you start your training at Rorion's Academy in Torrance?

    Marc Laimon: Yes, I started training at Rorion's Academy on January 22nd, 1996

    Brian Cimins: When and Why did you stop training there?

    Marc Laimon: I stopped training there after I saw the Pan-Ams in 1996. I saw jiu-jitsu I never saw before, but I was told it was too advanced for me, by Rorion Gracie. It was also too advanced for his students who had been training for years. I personally felt he did not know this advanced jiu-jitsu, and saying it was "too advanced" was a cop out. So I stopped training there, and went out to find my own path and seek out what jiu-jitsu really was, and is becoming.

    Brian Cimins: Does it concern you that Rorion and Ryron know your style of fighting?

    Marc Laimon: They don't know my style. My game has changed so much in the last year, let alone what my game was in 1996.

    Brian Cimins: Did you ever train live with Ryron back in the days you trained there?

    Marc Laimon: We would roll light, he was a 14 year old kid back in the day. He has grown a lot since then, and is actually a lot bigger than me now. I think he is a very tough opponent with some big wins under his belt. However in the industry that I am in, he has the name Gracie which is the biggest, and that is why I must fight him.

    Brian Cimins: Does that affect you positively, negatively or at all preparing for this match?

    Marc Laimon: It has no bearing what so ever.

    Brian Cimins: What do you think of the overall rules for the match?

    Marc Laimon: I would like to know exactly what Ryron will wear. Training for Gi and no gi are 2 different sports. He already has special Gracie (IGJJF) rules, why not tell me what I am fighting against. Imagine if you show up to the world series, and the umpire says, "Today we will play using a softball". It is the same game, but the dynamics change dramatically. It should be stated what your opponent will wear!

    Brian Cimins:A 30 minute time limit? Will this help or hurt you?

    Marc Laimon: If it goes 30 min I will die!

    Brian Cimins: What do you think of the slamming rule?

    Marc Laimon: I feel that the rule is bad. Someone could get seriously injured. I would hate to see someone get paralyzed because of a rule like this. This is a sport, not a fight, there is a big difference.

    Brian Cimins: If you get a chance to slam Ryron, will you?

    Marc Laimon: I want to beat Ryron with Jiu-Jitsu. I feel I have a much better game than he does, and by me slamming him on his head does not prove that i have better Jiu-Jitsu. I really don't forsee me being in a position where I will need to slam him, but sometimes ya got to do what ya gotta do.


    Brian Cimins: What would you tell people who are on the fence whether or not to attend this tournament to witness this fight LIVE?

    Marc Laimon: You can witness an American, who has been training half the time as his opponent, who was not born into a grappling family, beat a Gracie, but not by stalling, rather by having better Jiu-jitsu. See someone who said that the "crystal clear waters" of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was polluted, and left the "mecca" of jiu-jitsu to seek his own path of understanding. On November 6th in Las Vegas at Grapplers Quest, we will see if I made a wise decision! Come root for the American underdog.

    Brian Cimins: What is your prediction of the match?

    Marc Laimon: Marc Laimon will win by submission early!

    Brian Cimins: Any sponsors to thank?

    Marc Laimon: Howard Combat Kimonos for believing in a 20 old kid, who nobody ever heard of. All of my students, and training partners Thanks for all the help and support.
  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:53am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rorion Gracie Interview - The Gracies Respond to Marc Laimon

    Brian Cimins: Mr. Rorion Gracie, in less than 3 weeks, your son will participate in what many are calling the Grappling Superfight of the Year. How does it make you and your family feel to participate at the premier submission grappling event in America, Grapplers Quest on November 6th in Las Vegas? Any comments about Grapplers Quest events in general?

    Rorion Gracie: Grapplers Quest has earned its reputation as one of the best no gi competions around and has done a lot to promote the grappling arts.

    Brian Cimins: Is it true that your father, Helio Gracie will be attending this event? Will you and Helio be available for photos and autographs after the match?

    Rorion Gracie: Yes, my father, Helio is attending Grapplers Quest. We always try to accomodate such requests.

    Brian Cimins: How long has your son, Ryron been training for this match and what are you doing differently to prepare for Marc Laimon?

    Rorion Gracie: Ryron has been doing his regular tournament routine.

    Brian Cimins: What does competing against one of the best grapplers in America mean for you, your son and his career?

    Rorion Gracie: If he thinks he is one of the best, he should agree to fight with no poins and no time limit. As for the significance of this fight in Ryron's career, it it just another match.

    Brian Cimins: Please comment on the following statement made by Marc Laimon, "I stopped training there (at the Torrance Academy) after I saw the Pan-Ams in 1996. I saw jiu-jitsu I never saw before, but I was told it was too advanced for me, by Rorion Gracie. It was also too advanced for his students who had been training for years. I personally felt he did not know this advanced jiu-jitsu, and saying it was "too advanced" was a cop out. So I stopped training there, and went out to find my own path and seek out what jiu-jitsu really was, and is becoming."

    Rorion Gracie: I never said to anyone that any jiu-jitsu "was too advanced," that is a joke. I have discouraged our students from competing in regular BJJ tournaments because of its ridiculous rules. I still think that any competitor who relies on scoring points and then stalling until the time expires does so because he has no confidence in his possibilities. I guess we will find out soon enough how much Marc has learned since he went on his own path...


    Brian Cimins: Does it concern you that Marc Laimon knows your style of Gracie Jiu Jitsu?

    Rorion Gracie: Can you imagine if he didn't?

    Brian Cimins: Please comment on the overall IGJJF rules of the match and the following statement by Marc Laimon, "I would like to know exactly what Ryron will wear. Training for Gi and no gi are 2 different sports. He already has special Gracie (IGJJF) rules, why not tell me what I am fighting against. Imagine if you show up to the world series, and the umpire says, "Today we will play using a softball". It is the same game, but the dynamics change dramatically. It should be stated what your opponent will wear!

    Rorion Gracie: Marc, regardless of Ryron's outfit, expect the worst!


    Brian Cimins: A 30 minute time limit? Will this help or hurt Ryron?

    Rorion Gracie: I wish Marc, who predicted victory, would show his confidence by agreeing to no points and no time limit. Last man standing kind of a deal, I am sure the public wouldn't mind.

    Brian Cimins: What do you think of the slamming rule? Why allow it? Do you think it will assist in the growth of the future of jiu jitsu if people get hurt, like Cameron Earle did?

    Rorion Gracie: I think it is an important rule! Aside from punching and kicking, people shoud train Jiu-Jitsu on a regular basis to prepare for real fighting. Cameron (Earle) is a good fighter who made a mistake. If he learned from it, the lesson was priceless.


    Brian Cimins: What would you tell people who are on the fence whether or not to attend this tournament to witness this fight LIVE?

    Rorion Gracie: They should come (to Las Vegas) and see a great match.

    Brian Cimins: What is your prediction of the match?

    Rorion Gracie: I expect Ryron to do well as always.

    Brian Cimins: Any sponsors to thank?

    Rorion Gracie: Varig Airlines, WorldSize, Premier Chiropractic
  3. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:57am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your point?
  4. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:02pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ryron got robbed.

    Everyone says the Gracies ask for special rules, NO they don't.

    They ask for no points, no time limit.

    I have yet to see the video, but I"m told Laimon should have had his running shoes on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:03pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to take this opportunity to post some of very own Yrkoon9's comments, as made on Sherdog at the time:
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Prediction: Laimon sub in under 5 minutes, probably under 3.

    Why?

    Because Laimon started out at Torrance. He saw what they had and moved on. Lets be honest here, Rorians 'style' of jiu jitsu hasn't really evolved much in the last say...30 years. Wheras Laimon has access to the BEST out there. He has constantly evolved his grappling game.

    He was at BHJJC in its heyday. He was at Jsect at its pinnacle. Now he's in Las Vegas, where ALL the fighters come. Maybe they don't live there, but they do visit and drop in to train. People argue that Socal is THE mecca of grappling/JJ training. That might have been true back in the 90's but there is a strong base of fighters growing out of LV and that is in some part due to Marc.
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Don't let Marc forget his cup. All signs point to Royce--->Yoshidas balls.

    Seriously. Why fight under rules that allow slams? Because Marc plays bottom. Advantage to Gracie. Why not say whether Gi or no-Gi? Because he knows Marc is playing no-Gi. Advantage to Gracie.

    I said Marc will get him in under 5, but probably in under 3. Im thinking it will be an armlock, possibly wristlock.

    Any other wagers on how the fight will end?
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Yes it does. If Marc knew Gracie would be wearing a Gi, than obviously he would train chokes more. Without the Gi he wouldn't need to be practicing lapel chokes on his opponent.

    His opponent knows that he does not need to train collar chokes. There is an advantage. Not a big one, but its still there.
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    And those of us who know Laimon will always cheer for him.

    Don't be so quick to call it a bandwagon. It might just be that all these people know what they are talking about? Possibly that they have seen him up close and personal, maybe even taking lessons with him? Or that they have watched him compete for years and know of his skill?
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Don't wonder. Know it to be true.

    They still teach that stupid guard pass where you reach back to the crossed legs and try to lift one onto your shoulder.

    Freaking blue belts+ from torrance would come to BHJJC and get triangled over and over and over and over. They couldn't comprehend why it was they were getting tooled by white belts. It was simple, they were getting tossed archaic BS while the rest of the world laughed. They didn't know any better. They thought they were learning from the 'source'. What they didnt realize was that Rorian and Helio are money grubbing whores who dont value their students improvement as much as they value their secrets and their tuition.

    ZING!
    The entire next quote should be red, but I'll leave it as is so it's not so hard to read:
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    I see my comment about their archaic passes and hiding the good stuff stung a few.

    First off, that pass sucks. You can say whatever you like about correctly applying it, but the reality is if you reach BACK to uncross the ankles and hike that leg onto your shoulder you are going to be creating opportunities that even white belts will capitalize on. Sure, it is going to work against un/undertrained people, but get real - there are much better passes out there that don't leave you hanging. Its funny to practice your omoplata/triangles against people who refuse to move into...I dunno... at least the 90's.

    MANY people have said that Whorian/Helio (Torrance) held people back. Their interests have ALWAYS been financial, and they have been quite secretive in what they dole out to their students.

    Now, having competed against probably half the teams in California at one time or another I can tell you the reason that you don't see Torrance guys compete very often. Its because they get smashed. They console themselves with the fact that they do GJJ and not this 'sport' BJJ. So they have held their own tournaments, with modified rules. This doesn't suprise me at all. Gracies requiring special rules? Imagine that. The few times I have seen their students enter competition they are SORELY underconditioned because of the lack of sparring in daily practice, and their technique is years behind the competition. Simply put, there are guys coming from Brazil who are anxious to show their students everything, to create champions, and to further evolve the art.

    The Gracies themselves however, seem to be slightly different. I don't think they are having anything hidden. Much like those old Kung Fu movies, the 'secrets' are handed down only to the most trusted and to family so they are not used against them. So I think guys like Ryron, Rodrigo, etc are going to be extremely knowledgable.

    Its good that Laimon saw this early enough in his life that he could get out on his own and train with everyone. It would have sucked to take 10 years worth of lessons only to find out you could have gotten the same knowledge for half the price in half the time.

    BTW - just to set the record straight. Laimon followed Milius and a coupld of others to BHJJC. And it was Milius who was banging BOTH of Rorians daughters~

    ZING!
    After someone posted a list of people who trained under assorted Gracies to show that not all of them are bad:
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    And I am going to have to disagree with your reading comprehension. I specifically, and more than once, directed that criticism to Whorian and the Torrance academy.
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Just to confirm, yes Renzo and just about ALL the other Gracies have a genuine interest in their students achievements rather than practicing a new millenium form of McDojo. There are a few outside the Helio/Rorian school that practice some shady crap, Reylson is one.
  6. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:05pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Ryron got robbed.

    Everyone says the Gracies ask for special rules, NO they don't.

    They ask for no points, no time limit.

    I have yet to see the video, but I"m told Laimon should have had his running shoes on.
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Whorian had the entire Gracie crew with him including Helio and was acting like a complete jerkoff. Yes, he tried to change the rules. In the end it ended up working in Marc's favor. If you have ever wondered to yourself if Rorian is really the deuchebag that people say he is, the answer is yes. He was an asshole about it, to the point that the promotor of the event, Brian Cimmins asked Rorian to chill out and how would he like it if Brian came to one of Rorians events and acted this way. Rorian cussed him out. Very classy. Two thumbs up for Rorian not breaking character.

    Now on subject of the match it was pretty much summed up above. However, there was one leglock of Ryrons that was close. It took Marc rolling like 4 times to get out. But after that it was pretty obvious what his game was. He would try to play open guard as Marc was standing, get an instep hook sweep with his right, then his left - each time trying to grab for the leglock. Marc stepped out of them about..oh...I dunno 12 times at least.

    I will say this though, Marc took an unusually long time to recover from the groin kick. Now anyone who has been kicked knows that it will take the fight right out of you, but you can usually come back in a couple of minutes. Marc couldn't. It took like 5 full minutes. I will conceed however that if you do get kicked RIGHT on the button than your **** is done for. This might have happened to Marc, Ryron might have really nailed him. But it did raise some doubts, as Marc was looking tired before the kick. This might have had something to do with the fact that he was, well... owning Ryron with the takedown and passes right before the kick. In fact, the momentum of the fight was moving more and more in Marcs favor but fatigue was taking its toll.

    When we saw the groin kick, all I could say was...Wow. Shocking. A Gracie kicking someone in the nuts? Who would have thought...

    Overall I was disappointed that Marc didn't submit Ryron. That was just from a personal perspective though. I wanted it to be absolutely clear, with a big FU to the Gracies for the smack talked before the fight. It turns out Ryron has a hella bad ass guard and the domination I thought Marc would put on him was not going to happen. You gotta give Ryron credit, he is good. Like good good good. Way better than I thought. And in great shape. I expect to see big things in his future.
    12345
  7. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    My hate for Whorian runs long and deep. When I use that term, 'Gracies' it refers to him and any of his in the vicinity that allows him to spew that ****. I can only hope none of his crap has rubbed off on his sons. But as the 'Gracies' say, the apple never falls far from the tree.

    In this particular situation, I didnt hear Ryron talking ****. But somehow I don't think he acted alone in regards to the rule change. I dunno how its done in Brazil, but I have checked my father on occassion when he gets out of line. They should have done the same. He was WAY out of line.
    To which someone replies:
    Quote Originally Posted by tudor_bjj
    So u're like all your neighbors from the block?
    Ryron tried to do what this thing is all about (or was) do a sub. Getting points just for passing the guard and takedowns is what Ken did with Royce in the second fight.
    This is going far from what bjj was.
    And in response:
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    I have no idea what that first sentence was about...

    But I think you will need to qualify your statement about Ryron. His 'thing' is all about getting a footlock from the guard? Because that is all he tried to do. And was unsuccessfull. That one trick pony got rode.

    He didn't try to pass Laimons guard. He just sat there as Marc pushed him off and stood up....ohhh I dunno 10 times?

    Marc took Ryron down. Very nicely I might add. Marc actively tried to pass Ryrons guard and guess what...he did it.

    You say that getting the takedown and passing the guard is what Ken did with Royce, and this is far from what BJJ is? NEWSFLASH SUCKA, this ain't BJJ - its submission grappling.

    Takedowns count for a lot. And from what I saw there was only one guy who could take the other one down. And that was Marc. Ryron showed NOTHING standing up. Zero.

    You sound like someone who thinks that Ryron won, or should have won, or would have won. I have another NEWSFLASH for ya : He lost. He lost just as he should have. To his own rules. Had Rorian not been such a complete shithead at the tournament I would have more respect for Ryrons effort, but unfortunately his performance was stained by Rorians words and actions.

    The fight itself was slightly disappointing as I wanted it to end in a submission. But seeing Marc beat a Gracie under their own rules still makes me smile.

    You wanna know what else pissed me off? Rorian being the little weasel that he was, going over and sitting down next to the referee for 15 minutes before the match. You can say it was all innocent chit chat, but you KNOW Rorians coniving ass was trying to influence the referee. You didn't see Marc's camp going over there for a little 1-on-1 with the referee. In the very back of my mind I was hoping Rorian would start one of his little tantrums after Ryron lost and there would be a riot in which Rorian would be kicked repeadily in the throat so he could only speak out of one of those resonating boxes, or not at all.
    12345
    Last edited by Aesopian; 2/16/2005 12:10pm at .
  8. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:14pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To Yrkoon9:
    Quote Originally Posted by dig420
    first you say the Gracies were pissed because they couldn't get their own rules, then you say Laimon beat Ryron with the Gracies own rules? Which is it?

    You disrespect fighters in your sig and you disrespect Rorion, who only wanted a REAL submission match. No bullshit, no time limit, no points. If it wasn't for Rorion you'd be training in TKD and thinking you were a major badass.

    Laimon takes Ryron so easy? No problem? Then fight him to submission. He could have settled the whole issue right there by stepping up to the challenge and doing it the way it's supposed to be done, the way Rorion used to do it.
    In response:
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    First of all shitstain, they DID get their own rules. Those retarded IGJJF rules with the position reversal. Under those rules he DID beat Ryron. The day of the event, they (The Gracies) decide they want no points, submission only, no time limits, blah blah blah all kinds of **** that was not under the previously decided rules - THEIR rules in fact. So here it is, they had their rules in place, and decided to try and change them at the last minute.

    Second, my sig is a fucking QUOTE from someone else. The original poster didn't get dubbs so neither should I. And I do disrespect Rorian. If anyone in this entire world needs disrespecting, its him. You will find very few willing to defend him. He isn't a fighter. He's a charlatan. A con man. A carpetbagger. A lawyer. A blight on the Jiu Jitsu community as a whole. And in this case he lives up to his well deserved reputation.

    Third, if it wasn't for Rorian I would be taking TKD thinking I am a badass? Are you for fucking real? Should I bow down and lick his balls after a good feltching like the rest of you Gracie worshippers? Oh hell no. He may have brought the UFC to the limelight but he did so in a damn shady way.

    Fourth, if Marc could have 'settled' it by simply cowing to Rorians requests, than Rorian could have never brought up anything to be 'settled' if he wouldn't have been so devious as try to change the rules at the last minute. And if you were there you would have seen and heard HOW he was doing it, which was VERY disrespectfull. In fact, so disrespectfull that the promotor of the event had to check him - and you know what Rorian did? Cussed out the promotor. So here is what I think - if Ryron wanted a submission only match, than maybe he should have settled that **** MONTHS before the DAY OF THE EVENT.

    You don't sign your son up for a fucking match and then try to change the rules, intimidate the opponent and the promotor, and generally make a complete ass out of yourself and not think someones gonna call you on it.
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WTF is this thread about?
  10. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:16pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yrkoon9
    Classic Gracie revisionist history talking here.

    Under IGJJF rules, Marc *CLEARLY* wins. Let me say that again. IGJJF rules are specifically Helio/Rorian tournament rules. In particular they advocate the use of changing positions in the guard if there is more than 3 minutes without a pass or sweep.

    Now what I find disturbing is the trend toward people beginning to think 'If there wasn't a submission, than there wasn't a win'. Okay, that WOULD be true if those were the rules agreed to beforehand. But could of, would of, should of isn't reality. The reality is the original rules conceeded a lot to the Gracie style of BJJ. And then right before the match Rorian and crew wanted even more concessions.

    I find this quite reminicent of Gracie/Yoshida II. Had Marc been on the receiving end of a Ryron point domination victory, somehow I think that it would be touted as the greatest Gracie victory since UFC I.

    Now everyone wants to make some kind of excuse for Ryrons loss by saying that Ryron goes for the submission and he doesnt play the points, etc. Wellllll I have news for you. Marc does the exact same thing. Look at his matches. He goes for the kill. He submitted Ricardo Pires in the ADCC trials in like 15 seconds. I think his last match at GQ was like submission in 1 minute. You can take this all the way back to his victories as a blue belt in BJJ competitions. He goes for the tap. In this particular match however he wins on points. Had the match gone on for 12 hours there is no guarantee either one would have gotten the submission - its all speculation at this point. The only thing we know is that under the rules provided Marc wins decisively. There you go.

    If you want to play fantasy match up, who would win in a double overtime barbwire cagematch to the death go right ahead. I'll stick with what happened at Grapplers Quest.
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