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  1. leons26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:14pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    vee jitsu

    It appears to me that vee jitsu predates jeet kune do also. I don't know much about it personally, but from what I read it includes striking(evolving changes, I think Muay Thai is prefered now), grappling (judo at first I think jujitsu is prferred now), and weapons(kali and escrima since sticks and knives would be easy to have or find in the enviornment I think). They also train live against resisting opponents and some use multiple opponents. Set up for self defense scenarios not for cage fighting or point sparring. I would like to practice something like that since I'll never step into a ring (love to watch and understand what's going on though. So I practice BJJ now)
  2. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Other than that in fencing you hold the weapon in your dominant hand, what the hell does this mean? I'm finding it difficult to visualise a striking art where you don't aim to 'intercept the opponent'?

    Bearing in mind that I fenced for over a decade, what does this actually mean?
    It's called science, noob.

    The framework is the bare skeleton of WC (centerline, four corners, immovable elbow) with the hands up to guard the face like in boxing, and the JKD Bai-jong stance, which can be either open or closed.

    Also the Fencing principles of using the lead right as a weapon to Intercept the opponent, with the Fencing concept of the "fighting Measure" applied to footwork. And also the Boxing Punches, the Shovel and Corkscrew Hooks, the Bob/weave, Slipping, Ducking, and some simplified trapping.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but your understanding of JKD sounds like...well, you just got done reading the tao of jeet kune do. You do realize BL didn't write most of that, right? I bet if you read Jack Dempsey's Championship fighting and Edwin Haislet's Boxing you'd find striking similarities. All BL did was write notes on a bunch of stuff he thought was cool, then they made it into a book.

    It sounds like you were wondering why your wing chun wasn't more prominent in JKD. JKD uses what works. (Rimshot)
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:21pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^thank you for not contributing to the thread in any logical fashion.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:22pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    ^ meant for leon26. Your post is entirely off topic & worthless.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8876
    I'm in college, and I took College level Physics last semester. Look, i'm not gonna act like i did much better than average in it, but i have a pretty good understanding of the physics behind striking. It's relatively simple.

    Basically the power behind the Striking in MMA (which is pretty much slugging, from what i can recall) is based on lobbing punches, basically just using the body's natural mechanisms of whirling the shoulders, maybe combined with the use of the legs in stepping forward. It can work...it's just not as efficient.

    JKD strikes use those same mechanisms, but launch the strikes with much less telegraphing, in that the strikes dont have any preperatory motions like a lot of MMA/Boxing/Kickboxing strikes, and they are thrown from the center, rather than the Shoulder level, which contributes to their being harder to see coming.

    Also, they tend to retract back on the same line they flew out from, which leaves less openings to exploit and shortens the recovery time quite a bit.

    In addition to the Shoulder Whirl, JKD strikes also use the rotation of the hips and feet to add power. The only fundamental difference is that the Straight punches are thrown with a vertical fist, so that the bone alignment allows for a punch that is perfectly straight, a'la Dempsey, because of course in Physics they always teach you that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

    Sometimes a Diagonal fist is used because the Bone alignment is stronger, usually this is used with the Rear Straight. The hooks are more efficient also because they aren't opened up as much, because a tighter arc is quicker and also less telegraphic.

    The transfer of weight from the back leg onto the front (or vice versa with the lead hook and uppercut) along with the rotation of the hips and feet provides lots of power without pulling back the hands or opening up the hooks, thus negating the need to lob punches off of the shoulders like in MMA/Kickboxing.


    I mean, i could go on but i'm just trying to give a basic summary of the physics behind it here and the little details get kinda tedious.

    There is nothing in your post resembling a basic summary of physics behind striking. I'm serious.

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8876
    Basically the power behind the Striking in MMA (which is pretty much slugging, from what i can recall)
    Uhmmm, no. You recall it wrong. Actually I would as far as saying you cannot recall something you are not educated with. So, no. You are not recalling, you are making it up.

    And since you are in college, I have to remind you that this difference (between recalling and making things up) is a fundamental concept in academia.

    You don't get to call things scientific or unscientific, efficient or inefficient on the basis of what you "recall". You do so from facts, facts obtained from first-hand experience, on theories that are falsifiable, on things that are measurable, repeatable and verifiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8876
    is based on lobbing punches, basically just using the body's natural mechanisms of whirling the shoulders
    Wrong. Watching MMA fights on TV will never get you educated on striking as performed in MMA. Go to a gym and train... and better yet, compete. Then come back and attempt to lecture on its inadequacies from factual experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8876
    , maybe combined with the use of the legs in stepping forward.
    Again. Wrong. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8876
    It can work...it's just not as efficient.
    Efficient with respect to what? How do you define efficiency? C'mon man, you are in college. I shouldn't need to be asking you this question.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 11/03/2008 1:30pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. lionknight is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 1:49pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh and just a quick note...

    I really hate the "it's scientific" and they then say "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line." = That "science" is missing so many variables when it comes to striking an opponent that it just hurts to think about how stupid some people can be.
  7. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2008 2:28pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am so sick and tired of pseudo scientific crap being spewed on these forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by merriam-websters dictionary
    efficiency: efficient operation b (1): effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2): the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it
    what this means, in terms of striking, is that the most efficient strike is the one that can deliver the most power the most amount of times given the system it is based on (the anatomy of the human body)

    now lets look at the efficiency of your jkd style punch vs a standard boxing jab. First and foremost, if you are using anything even remotely resembling a "shoulder whirl" you lose. the shoulders are some of the least efficient muscles in the body, as it has a relatively short force arm compared to a long resistance arm (the deltoid versus the entire length of the rest of the arm. that means that if you are "shoulder whirling", or arm punching to the rest of the world, you are requiring a high amount of force out of fairly small muscles, and as a result will tire quickly, not to mention not generate a great deal of force, as the deltiods are not as capable as other muscles (more on that in a second).

    compare that to a boxing jab, which is what the standard mma practitioner uses. it starts with a small step, which allows for the rotation of the hips. the rotated hips and as of yet unrotated shoulders creates torque on the spine. the affect of this torquing motion is to cause the spine to turn to align itself in a neutral position. as the muscles of your hips and the strength of a boxers stance prevent their base from moving, this force travels up the spine to the shoulders, causing them to turn the direction of the step (i.e. towards your opponent) and generates that much more force when the punch is then thrown. this all happens in a fraction of a second. Now I hope I dont have to explain in kinesiological detail the advantages using your hip and leg muscles over your deltiods for endurance and power, or the mechanical advantage gained by the turning of the hips, but I will in a later post if you still dont get it.

    now your in college, claiming to have studied physics. physics is the one science I haven't studied in college and yet even though i haven't studied it in four years, my basic understanding is better than yours? You should probably go to your universities financial office and demand a refund, but thats just me.

    EDIT: what i just described was a power jab. there are ways to throw a jab without rotating your hips as I described, but even then the rotation of the punch (which i didnt even feel like getting into in my diatribe above) causes the the shoulder to play an ancilliary role to the chest and lats. ill explain that too if you really need it.
    Last edited by Beorn; 11/03/2008 2:37pm at .
  8. Honor is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2008 8:01pm

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    JKD to me is MMA for the street.
    Legendary Street Fighter
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2008 10:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor
    JKD to me is MMA for the street.
    No MMA is MMA for the street.
    JKD is JKD for the street.

    Yes, I know, you stated your opinion.
  10. brclry is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2012 7:14pm


     Style: JP Jeet June Do

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    I apologize for necro-ing a thread no one here cares about, but me and a handfull of BL fan boys. I expect ill get some **** for it. Yes I read all the threads I could find on JKD, and Jun Fan, and didnt see the info I am about to post. My goal is to add something to this conversation, by identifying lineages, and how they differ from another.
    _ung Fu: The body mechanics, and attributes developed through consistent purposeful martial training.

    Quote by Luis Berard orginaly posted by Stinkfist.
    Hello,
    my name is Louis Berard.....Bob was the guy that sparred challengers when they came to the china town school, in fact, his nick name was the ‘ ass kicker of china town.” Additionally, Bob spent much extra time training (verified by Linda Lee) at Bruce’s house. Because of Bob the Wednesday Nite Group really streamlined our basic curriculum to the streamlined tools that Bob brought to the group. We still knew and trained other things, but our foundation more solidly became china town. Not out of dogma, but simply because they followed scientific principles of directness and simplicity, and because they worked!
    Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...SeFwCYQTQbp.99
    like Louis is said, the WNG trains the Chinatown curriculum primarily. The Chinatown JKD school was the last school BL opened, Dan inosanto taught most of the classes, initialy they trained a lot of trapping, but later moved towards a kickboxing emphasis.
    Bob Bremer was also part of a BL's private backyard group with Jerry Poteet, Daniel Lee, Pete Jacobs, and Steve Golden. This group did not follow the Chinatown curriculum and were trained by Bruce. Notice that Ted Wong is not listed, though his time with Bruce was concurrent, his training was different.

    The problem as I see it is that the nucleus contains instructors from all of Bruce’s eras. This is fine except that people ( not Bruce’s original students) take Seattle, or Oakland era stuff and call it JKD. This stuff although may be very good in some respects is not JKD.
    Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...SeFwCYQTQbp.99
    The JKD coming from BL's backyard group is not from Seattle, or the Oakland era, because the backyard group was started when he moved to L.A. Im not sure exactly who the liars, Louis is referring to are. I do know Bob confirms that the 4 others listed above were part of his group.

    JKD Concepts: Is widely known so I wont elaborate too much. Dan and Bruce had different goals in martial arts, Dan was never trying to create a fighting system, he was teaching, researching and training.
    Bruce did these things too, but also intended to create his own martial art. He may have abandoned this goal later, but the way he trained others amounts to teaching a martial art, wether he intended to or not. Dan now calls the material that Bruce used himself Jun Fan Gung Fu. This is confusing because, Jun Fan Gung Fu was the name Bruce gave to his modified wing chun in Seattle, but this system uses a different stance, footwork etc... compared to the Jun Fan that Dan teaches.

    OJKD: Is the system taught in Ted Wong's lineage, but also an umbrella term for anything resembling what BL did. Ted Wong was BL's main sparring partner, they have little to no trapping, but also no clinch or groundwork. Kind of Hit and run fight strategy. They use footwork not found in the other lineages like the backwards pendulum, and step and slide, likely due to the fact they are not in fighters generally.

    Chinatown JKD: This is the JKD of the Wednesday Night Group which luis berard belongs to, there also referred to as OJKD. Tim Tacket started this group, after learning JKD/Jun Fan from Inosanto. By their own admission, they discarded techniques, and modified their mechanics, once Bob Bremer joined their group. Interestingly enough, they credit Bremer's tweaks for making their trapping functional (for whatever thats worth).
    This group spars, and claims to compete, though I can not find evidence of competing. They do train fighters who supplement their base with JKD. They use JKD trapping (which can barely be called trapping in the traditional sense), fencing footwork, and strong side forward boxing with vertical and horizontal punches

    I freely admit I am biased towards Poteet's lineage, its the one I know the most about.
    Jerry Poteet's lineage: Of the 3 primary 1st generation lineages, this is the least known, and has the fewest full instructors, because Jerry started teaching publicly relatively recently compared to the others, and because they have a more intensive curriculum. As stated above, Jerry was on of Bruce's backyard students, with Bob.
    We spar (depending on instructor) and use trapping, fencing footwork, and vertical lead boxing.

    JKD modified Fencing Footwork: not too different from MMA footwork, we focus on not changing levels when stepping, and pushing of trailing foot, so its a glide not a step, one foot is always on the ground, rear heel up, front foot flat, and LIGHT.

    JKD modified Wing Chun: The hip structure (tucked in pelvis) is retained. Several other concepts including Centerline, and elbow position, straight blasts etc... Trapping is heavily emphasized, but I doubt anyone trained in Wing Chun would recognize what we do as trapping. We train trapping with drills that look more traditional, but the application looks more like a small segment of the drill. I get the feeling that many of the trapping arguments on this forum fail because no one is sure what the other is referring to, and their only frame of referrence is Wing Chun.

    JKD Modified Boxing: Vertical punches are emphasized in order to land with the entire fist, not the last three knuckles. We aim with the bottom three, but the whole fist lands, like BKB's would. Dominant hand is in the front, which entails a whole set of strategy different from non-dominant leads. Hooks, are closer to the body and blend wing chun and boxing mechanics.

    To reference a post from a different thread about JKD in MMA, yes, punching and kicking will work in MMA. The real question most JKD guys are asking, is can I use JKD as a base in MMA. My answer to that, is not without learning to wrestle, for reasons already stated ad nauseum. Trapping, traditional or not will not work without a grappling base, in a rule set allowing for grappling, and without the trapping, hand range interceptions will rely on bobbing and weaving, which nuliffies most theoretical JKD advantages.

    There have been few to no examples of OJKD guys fighting because, A. it attracts nerds that dont fight, B. They usualy dont train hard, or condition themselves. C. Many instructors will kick you out for cross training (sad and true), you will also be kicked out for posting videos. D. Without trapping, its pretty much kickboxing with dominant hand lead, and very few people teach functional trapping. E. The rules will make it look more like MMA than JKD.

    The philosophy vs new martial art debate is moot, because even though BL said he didnt create a new martial art, he did synthesize a delivery system for himself, and he taught it to others so they could use it. A set of principles and concepts known as JKD exists independently from the delivery system, but the delivery system, its strategies, and techniques also exists.

    I am an apprentice instructor, and have been training for 4 years. I am on hiatus from training now because my son was just born, but will be starting MMA in a month, I know JKD works in MMA, because Jab, Cross, Kick works. I will try and get some videos of the trapping in sparring once I do, but I doubt its anything new to anyone.
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