Thread: Jeet Kune DO Vs. MMA
10/19/2007 1:39pm, #181
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sure there are people doing traditional or non-sport oriented martial arts who are hardcore. and sure there are chicks tough as nails. im just saying, that in terms of the MAJORITY, or cliche/stereotype mma/muay thai/bjj/sambo etc guys are more athletic in general.
and i agree with you [check that i split paragraphs]. i know SOOOOO many losers doing muay thai, or fat out of shape wife beaters. even here in russia, land of intolerant alpha males, there is a plethora of straight out of aushwitz skinny dweebs doing sambo or muay thai.
but cultish people are the exception in mma [nut-huggers aside], women in general and nonathletic women in particular are the exception etc. in krav, its the opposite. yuppies and domestics are common. in tma theres lots of buddha-fetishists. sure theres hardcore fighters, and more power to 'em, but theyre not the rule.
anyone who's into training for real reasons i got no gripe with, but i am very anti-dojo god and dogma, and those are things you frequently encounter in the non-competative ma world.
ive encountered sharks and sheisters, fags and assholes, all shapes and sizes in mma and the like, but theres a lot of good **** there, and its almost all [serious stuff anyway] up to date and useful..
noob on noob war. my pacifier is bigger than yours
10/19/2007 2:38pm, #182
Originally Posted by SonoVtheguN
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10/19/2007 3:41pm, #183
Heffy brings up the long winded, long debunked "street fighting" arguments again. Nice.
Also, Heffy, that was hardly a Lop Sau. He pulled the cloth of the elbow and threw an overhand left. A Lop Sau would be backhand pull with a strike coming over the arm being pulled. Nice try, though, but anyone who's ever train any Wing Chun would know that you are full of ****.
Last edited by Thaiboxerken; 10/19/2007 3:47pm at ."Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
10/19/2007 4:10pm, #184
Originally Posted by Sabateur
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The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
10/19/2007 4:22pm, #185
Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
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Now if that ain't motivation to work out I don't know what is.
10/19/2007 5:36pm, #186
Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
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Even still I think my point is very valid. MMA is obviously not a fight to the death. So maybe you should all stop pretending like it is the best way to learn self defense. It does not take into account any of the circumstances that occur in a real fight (like not being locked in a cage with ONE, TRAINED, opponent).
In my opinion, most of the danger in a real fight comes from multiple untrained attackers sorrounding you, and either dragging you down and stomping you, or stabbing/bludgeoning you from behind.
I doubt there are many people who would disagree with that after being in a real fight.
Seriously legalize headbutts, biting, eye gouging, weapons, and stomps to the head. See who shows up to compete in MMA, and time how many matches it takes them to die or go retarded.
MMA is a sport. It's supposed to be entertaining. If they legalized the deadliest moves, nobody would watch, or compete in it. Since it's not a real fight, lets stop pretending that it has any bearing on a real fight.
Nobody gets a month to bulk up and promote Xyience before a real fight. Real fights don't last three to five rounds. Nobody is going to stop the fight and scold you for kicking someone in the nuts in a real fight.
Real fights are usually over before you really know what's going on, and tend to be a huge mess. You don't get to square off with someone the same weight as you, knowing weeks, or months in advance, who you were fighting, what for, and being confident nobody will stab you from behind while you are concentrating on one opponent.
Real fighting is worlds away from MMA, not that you can't use MMA to defend yourself. You can, but the way people train MMA is for sportfighting rules. Ive never met any BJJ people who practiced rolling with a guy while 2 or 3 people tried to kick them. If you got into a real fight there is a very good chance you would end up in that exact situation though.
10/19/2007 5:54pm, #187
Even if MMA was done to the death, between two men, people like you would say "it's not a street fight." Gladiator combat had rules. There are "no" rules in the street, except that there are. They are called laws. If drunken uncle Al attacks you while at a BBQ, will you eye gouge him and kill him? C'mon. MMA is as close to a street fight as legal and employs the exact same tactics for a one vs one confrontation. Sure, multiple opponents might change the situation, but as seen in "Human Weapon MCMAP" episode, it's not a very huge difference in techniques, just tactics.
Multiple opponents is a lame ass excuse for woo MA people to hold on to as to why they still do absolutely stupid training techniques, like Kata and choreography. Get off of it, most MMA guys would have a better chance against multiple opponents than most woo MA people."Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
10/19/2007 6:30pm, #188
UFC 1-4 had no eye gouges or biting - that was it.
All the people who talk about "teh d3adly" rarely actually practice those same techniques or do them anyway. My nickname of "Hannibal" came about because I actually do, yet I will still launch them from an MMA base. Put simply, if you cannot grapple or fight in the first place then biting or gouging will avail you little. They are a "last ditch" technique.
Heffy, most MMA guys would dump you on your arse before you get into a range close enough to grapple...that is unless you train to fight against MMA guys. And the only way to effectively do that is to train in...MMA
Furthermore although streetfights have POTENTIAL to be lethal, few actually are.
In addition there are few people at ANY level of ability in MMA who would nlt be able to counter or completely avoid such moves.
10/20/2007 12:41am, #189
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- Oct 2007
agree with a lot of whats been said. many of the same counter arguments to heffy though.
sure real fights are more than one person, and sure mma fights are one on one. what i was mainly talking about was the "training methodology," which ive seen a lot of others talk about. mma trains you to be really fucking aggressive, and i think the fact that i am even saying this is pretty pedantic. we all know this right? sure there are people who pull guard, stall etc, but thats not the essence of the sport. the essence is kill the other dude in front of you, let the ref save him. and the technical training, the seriousness about how to punch, choke and snap arms right is unmatched. no one wants to get lambasted in the ring, so they push themselves. again this is so clear i feel stupid saying it.
now, before i comment again on other stuff:
first of all, if you do it and train different, tell me. im talking about my experiences in the disciplines i did, and though for a short time, put a tremendous amount of effort and time into. i didnt get into ma because i was a jock or wanted to be some champion. i still dont like sport fighting because i cant think of a better, harder though still relatively non-retarded test of skill and will. i like the style of no styles [sorry to paraphrase] ideology, and have a developing interest in kali. so, dont call me a meathead or something, cause im not...........
you just dont get that kind of aggression or technical focus in other places. once you leave sport its harder to find someone who really cares about how good their punch is. if you really give a **** about being invulnerable [an impossibility i know but it is the superhero fantasy that gets a lot of us into this] you cant view your technique as just good enough. it has to be the best. otherwise whatever injuries you incur are your fault. because of this lack of motivation, only the vague "you might get jumped" thing, you dont find quite as much intensity in rbsd.
10/20/2007 1:04am, #190
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- Oct 2007
****. accidently posted.
in traditional martial arts you find a lot of the perfectionists, but what are they perfecting. i used to train shotokan karate [organization ska, under tetsuo oshima] and i put my heart and soul into that ****. the things they wanted to perfect were the degree your hips were turned, or how low your ass was. and i did it cause i thought why the **** would they ask me to do this if theyre werent a good reason. there was no good reason, ska is a rediculous zen cult, and while in terms of subtle athleticism [they are VERY precise and graceful in their movements] they are miles ahead of other karate-ka ive seen [traditional] its just crap.
now what about the not "**** people." theyre either being lied to, like me or theyre lying to me [and those like me] about how they got to be so damn bad. like my instructor was bad ass, said dont cross train, dont box, you dont need to lift weights bla bla bla. he was a wrestler in highschool and college, boxed, inforced for the mob and could bench 450. gee, i wonder how he got so bad.
now of course in both places there are exceptions. there are crazy okinawan karate people who bang rocks, and do kettlebell training the japanese way. and there are people who do krav who get as good as mma guys [not pros of course] doing what they do. more power to them. i just know that my chances of getting that quality are higher when i walk into a sport gym.
now, i like rbsd. i really do. i got less tolerance for tma, but i like krav maga. though he sounds like a complete sheister im interested in what tony blauer has to say. senshido is some of the coolest training ive seen for self defence. id like to know more about jkd, because i see more and more people doing it in mma and dog brothers. im hoping to orient myself more towards that spectrum, but right now i know the best thing i can do is develop my striking, and my calm under pressure.
so im doing muay thai. i dont really understand how being really good at knocking the living **** out of people, breaking ribs, slashing forheads and the like could be bad for me in a standup fight. if you wanna tear up my face, you have to touch me first. you go for my head, its a clinch fight. you try some deadly move its a striking match.
if someone really wants to talk about deadly moves, how bout what we do. slams to concrete, elbows to the back of the neck, a knockout on the street puts you in a very mysterious world indeed. neck cranks, chokes, especially the nutcracker, and whatever you want when the guys down.
thanks heffy for the vote of confidence, ive been in my fair share and try to avoid them cause there fucking stupid. and REDICULOUSLY common here in moscow. i got jumped by a gangster and six security guards, now thats a shitty place to be. did i pull guard? no. do i ever pull guard in training? no. did i take him down? no. why? because i thought something was severely wrong when the six security guards just calmly watched the fight begin. so i dont feel very pre-programed to fight round by round or one guy at a time. and am pretty confident i can keep my cool. now you tell me, do you think something super "dirty" would have been good there? **** no. had i done anything besides exchange blows id have ended up in a back room at the casino. thats the way **** works here. after all, street fights are about going home at the end of the day. and a main point is DISCRETION. like someone said, a minor altercation, bad idea to fish hook. if your completely fucked, its a bad idea to piss them off anymore
do i feel like my sport training helped me. yeah. kept my hands up. his only two solid hits were the first two when i didnt fight back [hoping security would take my side]. i landed good hits on a guy with a significantly bigger reach. \
its what youre ready for thats the main thing. lots of people just dont get beat down in training. its really easy to think you can defend yourself when you dont contact spar. i used to be so fucking arrogant, then i got hit. damn, that fucks up your whole game. mma as an event teaches you to put up with a rediculous amount of stress. and in terms of martial arts cliches, clear your mind.