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  1. Stinkfist is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2007 3:16am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bagua / Xingyi / JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Greetings, I saw this below post on the Bax forum. I don't know the author and I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here. It's a bit long but worth the read:





    Hello,
    my name is Louis Berard. First I’d like to say that everything written here is my own opinion, and is not the Wednesday nite group or others opinion. I am writing because apparently someone posted my last post from the WNG’s forum. Which read by itself certainly has no context. Additionally I’m writing this post to be a voice of those who are trying to propagate the truth concerning JKD and what it is. First let’s start with who I am. Jeremy Lynch and I started training at Tim Tackett’s Garage in March of 1991. Not only was (is) Tim my Sifu, but Bob Bremer, (Original Chinatown,)_ Jim Sewell, (original China town,) Dennis Blue (tackett student since 1977/Combat vet) Sonny Bygum (combat vet,) and Bert Poe, (combat Vet.)
    Having listed these instructors, I want to focus on Jeet Kune do and the instructors of this art. Tim Tackett was a ‘back yard’ student of Dan Inosanto’s. Tim was chosen by Dan to teach JKD at seminars since Dan had promised Bruce not to teach JKD commercially.
    Bob Bremer, was one of the top attendees at the china town school. He was also the guy that Bruce, as Bob says “ was grooming me to be the gladiator.” Bob was the guy that sparred challengers when they came to the china town school, in fact, his nick name was the ‘ ass kicker of china town.” Additionally, Bob spent much extra time training (verified by Linda Lee) at Bruce’s house. Because of Bob the Wednesday Nite Group really streamlined our basic curriculum to the streamlined tools that Bob brought to the group. We still knew and trained other things, but our foundation more solidly became china town. Not out of dogma, but simply because they followed scientific principles of directness and simplicity, and because they worked!
    Jim Sewell was also a china town student, and friends with Bob. He didn’t train as long as Bob, but interestingly enough he’s got more time in then some of the more vocal original students out there. He has been very helpful in adding insight and stories of historical interest to the group as well as some of the drills and tools they trained.
    Additionally Jeremy Lynch and I spent four or five days a week training with Dennis Blue at his school or house. We both competed in Pro Am kick boxing. We found that JKD gave us an edge in the ring, and for myself, I found it worked great in the street of course.
    As the years passed Jeremy and I eventually earned our full instructor certificates. Along the way we were seeing how much bull crap was being taught as JKD, not only by Know-nothings, but more dismaying, by students of Bruce’s and well known other sifus. This was originally what the nucleus was supposed to put straight. They were supposed to clarify what JKD is and isn’t and in my opinion they have made the confusion even worse. The problem as I see it is that the nucleus contains instructors from all of Bruce’s eras. This is fine except that people ( not Bruce’s original students) take Seattle, or Oakland era stuff and call it JKD. This stuff although may be very good in some respects is not JKD. Some of the instructors admittedly teach other arts, I’ve got no problem with that. They are being honest and I respect them for it. Some others teach other stuff and it’s not clear if they realize they are(tai chi). Then we come to the Liars. There are at least two china town students who lie, lie , lie about how long they trained. Apparently when the attendance records started circulating, these instructors backed down on that and started lying about training at Bruce’s house. How do I know? Well, Bob was there and he knows. Linda lee was there and she knows. I’ve heard directly from Bob, and indirectly from Linda Lee that this is bull crap! Also Herb Jackson is still around and he was at Bruce’s house more than anybody. Ask him.
    Why is this important? Because at least one of these instructors teaches baloney, and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The other Guy I’ve never seen, so I’ll reserve judgment until I see what he teaches. These guys and others that lie, become big JKD gurus, and their bull crap grows as they certify pathetic students, who then perpetuate the bull crap.
    The other problem is Concepts JKD. I believe Dell Pollard has already posted on this site that he was there the day Dan Inosanto came up with the name ‘concepts.’ In a way I understand Dan’s dilemma at the time, he promised Bruce not to commercially teach JKD,(he had Tim Tackett do that,) but he wanted to still make a living and be known as a Student of Bruce Lee. I think some of the ‘concept’ curriculum is great, it’s just that much of it is contrary to JKD principles and really has no resemblance to JKD.
    Once again the nucleus was supposed to clear this up.
    So I’ve reached a point where I believe the understanding of what JKD is, is being lost to some respect because the people with clout that could clear this up won’t. My seniors and Linda Lee (and apparently the other nucleus members in the know)believe it is better to not make waves, I have come to a different conclusion and have chosen a different path. I have severed my ties to the Wednesday nite group so that I may speak freely without putting them in a position they don’t agree with. Having said this, I personally don’t care if you learn JKD from me or not. Just as long as you learn real JKD. I’m not in this for the money. I’m a true believer in JKD as a martial art because it works period. And I want those who really want to learn it, to learn it! I will list here the nucleus members and or original Bruce Lee students that I know are teaching JKD;
    Bob Bremer, Ted Wong, Jim Sewell, Tim Tackett, Chris Kent, Cas Magda.
    There are many other instructors under and not under these nucleus members that teach JKD truthfully, but that is for another time.

    I’m going to leave you with a manifesto that I put together for the JKD page of the website that Dennis Blue and I are creating. I also include some JKD attributes that I believe are essential in order to be called a JKD practitioner. JKD Group (Name?)

    Manifesto
    This group was organized to promote the martial art of Jeet Kune Do as conceived and taught by Bruce Lee. We recognize that Jeet Kune Do consists of two components; one a technical, scientific, concrete component (Foundational Structure,) and two; A General philosophic component. The first components is;
    1) A Foundational Structure:
    This foundational structure is primarily built upon the combative arts of Fencing and western Boxing. The center line principle and some streamlined hand immobilization techniques from Wing Chun Gung Fu are also part of this foundation. This foundation includes a specific stance, specific footwork, specific tools performed, trained and refined in a scientific way, a specific Five Methods of attack, and a specific scientific philosophy which calls for; 1) economy of motion 2) scientific principles of body mechanics 3) the goal of Intercepting an opponent as the primary and most efficient means to ending an attack once initiated by an opponent.
    Additionally, live drills and sparring MUST be a part of the training program, otherwise, practitioners are practicing ‘Dry land swimming,’ which only serves to inflate their egos while doing nothing to realistically prepare themselves for fighting. We submit with the authority of lineage, historical facts, and scientific principles that Jeet Kune Do cannot exist without the essential foundational structure and the specific scientific philosophy.
    The second component is;
    2) A General Philosophy:
    This general philosophy states in part that; the practitioner is ultimately more important than any system or structure owing to the fact that we are all individuals, with varying physical shapes, abilities and temperaments. Knowing this, the foundational structure is not a mandate, rather, doing what is the most efficient natural response at the moment action is required is the ideal. This does not mean that we permanently disregard the foundational structure and philosophy for an inferior, less scientific, less direct, or less natural response, (JKD is scientific fighting.) Then the practitioner would be leaving the confines of JKD and scientific methodology and would be partaking in the unscientific “tool / art of the month” club which many people mistakenly believe JKD to be. Many people embrace the ‘individuality’ philosophy of JKD and totally neglect the maybe more important scientific base on which JKD rests. These two principles ideally exist together, but neither one can be neglected.
    Expressing oneself as an individual and as a JKD practitioner means the most efficient response for a particular moment. Not any old technique or tool will do! ( If you practice efficient tools your responses will be efficient, and the opposite is also true, inefficient training breeds inefficient responses!) We have found that in most situations JKD tools are the most efficient. We base this belief on scientific principles of body movement and observation, not blind belief in dogma.
    Additionally, the most efficient response for the moment might turn out to be something normally very awkward or less efficient. However the needs of the moment outweigh normalcy in regards to responses. We understand that responses of this type are not foundational, but are functional, and serve the greater scientific principle of directness and efficiency (closest tool to nearest target). Once executed, a practitioner most likely will be able to resume combat out of the foundational (most scientifically efficient ) structure.
    Additionally practitioners are encouraged to add tools that Are “specifically their own,” that is, what fits their unique body, attitude etc.. the best. Adding is only done however, if these tools can be added without permanently altering the basic JKD foundation and philosophy. Practitioners are ultimately encouraged to research through observation and experimentation to become a martial artist who has discovered what tools, methods of attack, etc.… fit him the best, thereby elevating the individual above any so called martial art.
    It is our contention however, that to be called Jeet Kune Do, (The way of the Intercepting Fist,) a person’s expression of martial art though expressed in a unique manner, must maintain the JKD foundational structure and specific philosophy. Otherwise why call it JKD? For JKD is an intercepting art, and the fencing / boxing foundation allows intercepting to happen with greater frequency (owing to scientific principles,) than any other structural foundation. So, if you’ve left the intercepting structure and philosophy behind, be honest, and don’t call it JKD!


    JKD Attributes
    We believe you can’t call what you are doing JKD if you omit one or more of these essential attributes:
    • Primarily based on a Fencing / Western boxing structure. Centerline principle and streamlined hand immobilization added from Wing Chun.
    • Specific footwork,( a fencing / boxing hybrid,) and tools (Taught by Bruce and fit the structure).
    • Emphasis on intercepting.
    • Scientific, streamlined, efficient and direct, (closest tool to nearest target.)
    • Strong side forward.
    • Primary use of lead hand and lead leg.
    • Five methods of attack.
    • Primarily a street art. (Although can very easily be applied in the ring.)
    • “Add specifically what is your own,” (without permanently changing the foundational structure.)
    • “Express yourself!” (Do what is most efficient for you at each moment.)
    • Able to fight / Combat, in three general ranges. (Calling these ranges, kicking, punching and grappling is not accurate because you can punch kick or grapple in more than one range!)
    You MUST be “In the Water!” (Live drills and sparring.)
  2. KhorneliusPraxx is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/12/2007 7:40am

    supporting member
     Style: JackOAllTradesMasterONone

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thank you Einstein McFly and Stinkfist...now we are on target.
  3. Einstein McFly is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2007 1:56pm


     Style: Boxing, JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCollider
    So you're saying JKD is for the street, therefore it beats MMA on the street. Hmm... my friend the _ing __un sifu says "_ing __un is for the street".
    Wow, you got that from my post? I must have written exactly the opposite of what I thought I did. I’d better go back and read it again. Maybe you should too.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCollider
    According to you he'd beat an equivalent size/weight combat athlete every time the second they step outside the ring/dojo/matted area. In fact one might extrapolate from what you said that every MA exists on a spectrum of street vs sport spectrum, and therefore as _ing __un sucks in the ring it must be awesome on the street.
    Not according to me. According to all sorts of simps out there, probably some of whom are on this message board, but not me. Something that sucks in the ring will almost certainly suck in the street, but something that I can’t do in the ring EVEN THOUGH OTHERS MAY BE ABLE TO is just as bad in the street for me as some other nonsense that works for no one ever. You investigate different techniques, try them out in sparring and if it doesn’t work for you then you forget about it. If you’re training for sport MMA and you suck at takedowns because of strength/coordination/whatever issues and you spend weeks and months and years working on it then you’re wasting time when you could be perfecting some techniques that you are good at or learning things that you can be good at. Of course, this is a non-starter for competitive MMA because you NEED takedowns to win a match. You don’t NEED takedowns to get a mugger off you long enough to run screaming like a cheerleader.



    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCollider

    Similarly, have you ever thought training for combat sports is a better way to improve athleticism than doing self defense classes? Therefore those two twins you discuss will end up physically different over time, with athleticism favouring the one who does the sport over the one who does self defense classes for nerds.
    Yeah, you’d almost definitely be in better shape if you’re training to compete. That’s just the way is shakes out, usually. People doing proper JKD with plenty of sparring and exercise though shouldn’t be absolute slobs when they get out there though. It’s not as if anyone is arguing that body building +marathon running =best street fighter ever.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/12/2007 2:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. couch13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 5:41pm


     Style: TKD, Boxing & SW

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chi-conspiricy
    Dan Inosanto himself said Bruce's opinion on Muay Thai was flawed at the time he criticized it, and would have eventually embraced and moved towards it.
    Joe Lewis says that bruce was becoming a neo-thai fighter near the end of his life.
  6. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 7:26pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This bit...

    "Having said this, I personally don’t care if you learn JKD from me or not. Just as long as you learn real JKD. I’m not in this for the money. I’m a true believer in JKD as a martial art because it works period. And I want those who really want to learn it, to learn it! I will list here the nucleus members and or original Bruce Lee students that I know are teaching JKD"

    Is BOLLOCKS.

    JKD isn't a fucking martial art, it's a process. Anyone that says otherwise is talking out of their arsehole
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 7:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice pooch.
  8. Sharkonis is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 8:29pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please excuse me if this has already been stated, but regarding those of you who are JKD practioners, surely you understand that Lee's Tao, his collection of fighting techs that later became JKD is in fact one of the first MMA's
    I base this not on my MA background but on my relationship that I had with Brandon Lee on the set here in Wilmington prior to and upon his accidental death on set.

    Sharkonis
  9. dwak is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 9:01pm


     Style: Wrestling, bjj, judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkonis
    Please excuse me if this has already been stated, but regarding those of you who are JKD practioners, surely you understand that Lee's Tao, his collection of fighting techs that later became JKD is in fact one of the first MMA's
    No, no it wasn't. we had pankration at some godawfully long time ago, several thousand years BC. there were exhibition matches all over the place in the 19th century, there was professional wrestling in the 19th century, there was vale tudo and the gracie challenge in brazil starting about the 1920's, there were the people Kano sent all around the world to promote judo, the kodokan had challenge matches against all sorts of jujitsu schools for many years, and I'm sure I'm forgetting many examples. So no JKD is by no means one of the first MMA's. if there is even such a thing as an MMA. and wether it is or isn't has absolutely nothing to do with anything brandon lee may have said.
  10. Sharkonis is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2007 9:30pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwak
    No, no it wasn't. we had pankration at some godawfully long time ago, several thousand years BC. there were exhibition matches all over the place in the 19th century, there was professional wrestling in the 19th century, there was vale tudo and the gracie challenge in brazil starting about the 1920's, there were the people Kano sent all around the world to promote judo, the kodokan had challenge matches against all sorts of jujitsu schools for many years, and I'm sure I'm forgetting many examples. So no JKD is by no means one of the first MMA's. if there is even such a thing as an MMA. and wether it is or isn't has absolutely nothing to do with anything brandon lee may have said.

    OK SLICK, to start with notice the name ? Sharkonis, lets guess what nationality that come from, not forum call sign but family name ,

    Second point, pank got its name out there to sell memberships in McDojos. What you are refering to is commonly known as GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLING.

    You my freind are watching to much TV, i,e, The Discovery Channel. get your facts, then we can chat

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