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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.58%
  • No.

    662 65.42%
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  1. Echo Unit is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2008 1:41pm


     Style: Aikibujutsu, Shinkendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I voted yes because in the future, with the growing drug epidemic and the general downward trend in civilization, the entire surface of the earth will be covered in dirty syringes, broken King Cobra bottles, and mirror-scraping razorblades. BJJ will be useless.
  2. Blue Negation is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/01/2008 2:10pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Is the Olympic Judo that 99.99% of judoka practice the Judo of Jigoro Kano? Here, let me answer for you:
    NO.
    So what? That doesn't mean that Judo is suddenly not the best at what it does or that people interested in a sound system for smashing people into the ground will be able to find it in their karate forms. Judo's been around for a century and yet its place is not taken. At all. Sambo is the only rival for its niche. No Krotty stylists. No kung fu mastas. No silat gurus. No one else is even close to Judo in powerful throws with a pleasant side dish of pins and submissions. Yeah, you get bullshitters that tell their students "well we have throws too, look! Let's all work the hip toss/O-Goshi/Pyarlip M'haerl/whatever the **** you want to call it. Now that we've demonstrated we've got the same stuff as Judo guys PLUS SO MUCH MORE!! let's just forget about this throwing business for another couple months while we once more pantomine eye gouges."

    Many Judoka who've been practicing for up to a year, on NOTHING BUT JUDO, have a hard time throwing a resistant opponent, especially a strong athlete. Many BJJ'ers who've been practicing for months or even longer on NOTHING BUT BJJ, have a difficult time maintaining control of and submitting a strong, athletic noob.

    That's the most absolutely basic criterion for saying this part of your martial art works, isnt' it? Can I beat the prototypical untrained guy who's bigger and stronger than me using what I've been taught?

    Ground fighting is just a minor aspect of a complete combat game, which includes ground (grappling and striking), stand up (grappling and striking), weapons and multiples. As martial artists resurrect and revitalize their ground games, BJJ will fall behind the scenes as just one part of the ways to build sound ground techniques.
    You're proposing that these other martial arts will "discover" and "revive" their long lost groundfighting/develop their own methods/whatever, yes?

    So how much time are they going to spend training groundfighting? how long will it take before a practitioner of NEW AGE SILAT can be held up the the standard of the 4 stripe BJJ white belt in that he can positionally dominate and submit at will a much bigger, stronger, athletic noobie who's doing his best to crush the NEW AGE (WITH GROUNDFIGHTING) SILAT guy into the ground?

    Maybe 5 years? Maybe never? Keep talking about how grappling is going to be discovered in the forms across the world and BJJ is going to be pushed to the background. Just like Judo was, amirite? And boxing... because every martial art has the jab and cross, so why bother with that boxing ****?

    You're making a horrible mistake by assuming a martial art "having" groundfighting, or "having" throws, or whatever the **** you want to use as an example, means that they're competent at it. There is so much nuance to the most basic sweeps, the most basic hip throws, the most basic boxing combination, that you simply won't find in crappy generalists that have self-appointed themselves as ALSO GROUNDFIGHTERS.

    No matter how much spit and polish you put into it, karateka suck at throws even though their art "has" them. Almost all kung fu styles have jointlocks and they all suck at them. It comes down to what you devote your time practicing and HOW you train it. It's hilarious when Judoka suggest that Judo has better newaza than BJJ because, you know, they had that stuff first and they do it too and so on. The BJJ guys practice it ten times more, they break it down more, etc, but you still have diehard apologists that refuse to accept the idea that BJJ has something to offer. What you're doing here is ten times worse than that because at least the Judo guys DO scientifically train groundfighting some of the time and have legitimate groundfighting specialists that know their stuff. In your world of tomorrow, every dojo and kwoon on every corner has groundfighting... and the sad thing is that that part of your vision is right. what you're missing is that they'll be no more qualified to teach it than Sensei Rex at the Rex Kwon Do Dojo is qualified to teach boxing.

    Besides, it has been established by the Gracies themselves that the majority of BJJ techniques aren't really necessary (i.e. Gracie Combatives / "34 specific techniques... needed to achieve victory in 95% of all cases..."). Sounds like even the Gracies have trimmed down their huge "700 technique" style down to a minimal number of maximally effective techniques.
    Techniques are not BJJ. If Techniques were all BJJ was, BJJ would be just judo. BJJ is strategy and training method. That's what makes it work. Every shitty modern Jujutsu style has most Judo techniques in it and they suck because they don't train it methodically and scientifically and rigorously.

    So, yes, BJJ is a trend, the Gracie family has fallen pretty far off of their pedestal (due to losses, drugs, etc). BJJ will end up just another style in the Yellow Pages. Every decade in the last 50 years has seen it.
    **** the Gracies, no one cares about them anymore. They aren't BJJ, who was even talking about them? Just you?
    Last edited by Blue Negation; 4/01/2008 2:12pm at .
  3. Rancid Pantaloons is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2008 2:10pm


     Style: unemployed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    If you vote, I ask that you explain your reasoning, since yes or no leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
    If we take a look at the ufc's history we'll notice that the biggest strikers won in the begining. then bjj came along. small bjj guys rocked the house. now big strikers have learned bjj. they bet up small bjj guys. I think now is the time for small bjj guys too eat some chicken and train some ground countrol.. so that big wrestler man bittes the dust.

    I think that bjj could use some inovasion.
  4. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2008 3:00pm

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     TryKickboxingNow.com - Free Internet Marketing for Kickboxing Programs! Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No some fighters could use some innovation. You guys are real fucking stupid, I never really come out and say that much but you just are.

    "WOWIIEEE, some strikers are making waves in the sport!! Striking is teh future, BJJ is no longer needed!!!"

    Except that the best strikers still have to know BJJ and wrestling in order to stay standing and in case it goes to the floor. Just because its the preference of some fighters to stand does not mean everything else is unimportant.

    Thats like if in boxing, some guy used only the rope-a-dope style of Ali. Did all other style of boxing become obsolete? What about Tysons peekaboo style? Did the other styles become obsolete?

    The only people who think its a fad and that other art will come to have ground games and dominate are guys who do anything besides : BJJ, Wrestling, sambo, Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Kyokushin, San Da and thats about it. Thats because they hate the fact that their martial art truly does suck and are unable to cope with it, because their all big martial arts nerds at heart hopiing the larpfest will one day be justified.
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2008 7:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    So what? That doesn't mean that Judo is suddenly not the best at what it does or that people interested in a sound system for smashing people into the ground will be able to find it in their karate forms. Judo's been around for a century and yet its place is not taken. At all. Sambo is the only rival for its niche. No Krotty stylists. No kung fu mastas. No silat gurus. No one else is even close to Judo in powerful throws with a pleasant side dish of pins and submissions...
    All I read was BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH. I think I wish you had a point about as much as you do...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    Many Judoka who've been practicing for up to a year, on NOTHING BUT JUDO, have a hard time throwing a resistant opponent, especially a strong athlete. Many BJJ'ers who've been practicing for months or even longer on NOTHING BUT BJJ, have a difficult time maintaining control of and submitting a strong, athletic noob.

    That's the most absolutely basic criterion for saying this part of your martial art works, isnt' it? Can I beat the prototypical untrained guy who's bigger and stronger than me using what I've been taught?
    Nope, you still haven't come to any semblance of a point....



    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    You're proposing that these other martial arts will "discover" and "revive" their long lost groundfighting/develop their own methods/whatever, yes?
    Either that or go get some ground skills somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    So how much time are they going to spend training groundfighting? how long will it take before a practitioner of NEW AGE SILAT can be held up the the standard of the 4 stripe BJJ white belt in that he can positionally dominate and submit at will a much bigger, stronger, athletic noobie who's doing his best to crush the NEW AGE (WITH GROUNDFIGHTING) SILAT guy into the ground?
    According to you, even doing BJJ for months and months won't enable one to deal with an "bigger, stronger, athletic noobie". Again, if you're posting like this and you still don't have a point, you need more help than BJJ's going to give you. Ground fighting is no substitute for critical thinking and cognitive reasoning...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    You're making a horrible mistake by assuming a martial art "having" groundfighting, or "having" throws, or whatever the **** you want to use as an example, means that they're competent at it. There is so much nuance to the most basic sweeps, the most basic hip throws, the most basic boxing combination, that you simply won't find in crappy generalists that have self-appointed themselves as ALSO GROUNDFIGHTERS.
    Why does it matter, if theres "so much nuance" & **** that someone spending months or years dedicated to Judo/Sambo/BJJ/whatever will have problems getting it down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    No matter how much spit and polish you put into it, karateka suck at throws even though their art "has" them. Almost all kung fu styles have jointlocks and they all suck at them. It comes down to what you devote your time practicing and HOW you train it. It's hilarious when Judoka suggest that Judo has better newaza than BJJ because, you know, they had that stuff first and they do it too and so on. The BJJ guys practice it ten times more, they break it down more, etc, but you still have diehard apologists that refuse to accept the idea that BJJ has something to offer. What you're doing here is ten times worse than that because at least the Judo guys DO scientifically train groundfighting some of the time and have legitimate groundfighting specialists that know their stuff. In your world of tomorrow, every dojo and kwoon on every corner has groundfighting... and the sad thing is that that part of your vision is right. what you're missing is that they'll be no more qualified to teach it than Sensei Rex at the Rex Kwon Do Dojo is qualified to teach boxing.
    What's all this "scientific" bullshit you keep ranting about? BJJers & grapplers get their asses handed to them all the time by guys that know just enough to not get taken down and still deliver damage. BJJ isn't the über, look at Sakuraba, a "pro wrestler", whupped up on EVERY Gracie fighter he ever met. No BJJ. How does that stand up to your little rambling theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    Techniques are not BJJ. If Techniques were all BJJ was, BJJ would be just judo. BJJ is strategy and training method. That's what makes it work. Every shitty modern Jujutsu style has most Judo techniques in it and they suck because they don't train it methodically and scientifically and rigorously.
    Ohhhhh-kay...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    **** the Gracies, no one cares about them anymore. They aren't BJJ, who was even talking about them? Just you?

    You know, when it comes down to it, I think you just have a whole mess of issues. Why don't you go get some counseling or some meds and have a nice day, okay?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. Iphaltuus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2008 1:35am


     Style: Movement

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ is not a fad in my opinion. You can become a very good fighter if you train hard in BJJ, and have a good stand up work ethic. Considering striking, most of the mma fighters I see today are not very good stand up fighters, they seem to have pin point accuracy but lacking in defense when compared to skilled professional boxers. This is of course exaggerated by the fact that most mma fighters are using 4 ounce grappling gloves as opposed to 10-16 ounce boxing gloves, as well as the fact that boxers generally don't have to worry about take-downs or kicks. However, I haven't seen many mma fighters with noticeable stand up grace, just speed and power.

    Before I stray too far from the point, you can't be a successful mma fighter without a decent ground game, period. Sure, you might win against a bunch of no talent record builders, but when you fight someone with half a champions skill and heart, you'll most likely loose. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a great ground fighting style. Others are as well, but just like any martial art that will stand the test of time past the modern age of destroyed mysticism, BJJ tells it's tale and proves it.

    Tai Kwon Do- Ancient korean martial art, intended use was to take down samurai off their horses. Not many horse fighters to date.

    Professional Wrestling- Do I even have to? No.

    Boxing- Good for hand skill, bad for getting tackled and or submitted.

    Kickboxing- Same here.

    Muay Thai- Same again.

    Kung Fu- Ancient chinese martial art used to train warriors with flashy techniques that would entertain rich folk. In other words, stage fighting.

    Then comes along this Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The teacher used to be a wimpy teen, he's skinny, but he holds his own against the Japanese champion, outweighed by 60 pounds no less. He starts beating people left and right, actually having to prove himself. His son beats all of the people at the carnival that is UFC 1. Boom legend status in the U.S.

    In final summary, is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a fad? No. Will it die down in a couple of years? Of course. Most other "styles" have spent all of their time developing counters to the BJJ movements, you don't get a lot of enemies without being powerful, now do you?

    I mean, when was the last time you saw guys knocking down Jean Claude Van Dam's door for a rematch?
    Last edited by Iphaltuus; 5/26/2008 2:56pm at .
  7. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2008 8:56am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphaltuus
    Blah, blah, blah, I want to drink Helio's bathwater.
    1. Welcome to the site nutrider.

    2. Tae Kwon Do is a Korean art moron.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  8. KO'd N DOA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2008 12:02pm


     Style: Judo Sandbagger

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphaltuus
    BJJ is not a fad in my opinion. ...

    Most other "styles" have spent all of their time developing counters to the BJJ movements, you don't get a lot of enemies without being powerful, now do you?
    As soon as I saw Ninjitsu, Sumo and Karate get beat at UFC, I dropped all my training and have dedicated my life to finding the solution to the guard, and other d34dly BJJ moves. Myself and a team of our top instructors are doing research by pouring over ancient manuscripts aquired on the interwebz and in secret pottery designs, and are working it out using computer modling programs and logarithms.

    Nothing yet...but the day is coming... You can bank on it.
  9. Iphaltuus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2008 3:14pm


     Style: Movement

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nutrider, ouch. In any case, it's funny you should mention that about Helio Gracie, because I just bought his book. You see, I am actually just starting my training. I found some good people who are at the same level as I am. I was raised on stand up game such as boxing/kick boxing.

    In any case, I thought it would be best to start out with Helio's, because I want to learn the basic principles so that I can fully understand why some of the top BJJ people have made changes to the moves and technique. I've noticed a few things myself sofar, nothing that substantial, just like when he instructs to duck low out of a strangle hold, not worrying about his opponents knee strikes at that point.

    In any case, I noticed that you posted wrestling as one of you styles. I would really appreciate it you would post some pointers on where to start studying wrestling as well. Sofar I'm interested in a mixture of Sambo, Wrestling and BJJ for ground tactics and Boxing/Light Muay Thai for stand up with Judo/Shoot being the main focus on transitional work.

    The truth is that though I am very interested in the body work of wrestling, I couldn't tell you the difference or correlation between Greco-Roman and Catch.
  10. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2008 7:39pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphaltuus
    In any case, I noticed that you posted wrestling as one of you styles. I would really appreciate it you would post some pointers on where to start studying wrestling as well. Sofar I'm interested in a mixture of Sambo, Wrestling and BJJ for ground tactics and Boxing/Light Muay Thai for stand up with Judo/Shoot being the main focus on transitional work.
    No knee jerk reaction at my insult? Damn it, now I have to take you semi-seriously.

    Regarding wrestling, if you're still in school, join the wrestling team if your school has one. If you're out of school or your school doesn't have wrestling, you can try to find a wrestling club. The YMCA or a nearby high school/college that has a wrestling program is a good place to ask about wrestling clubs.

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