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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.65%
  • No.

    660 65.35%
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  1. Full Circle is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 5:49pm


     Style: Chicken Choking

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    I really am curious about where I said "go take a Kosen judo class". I said they will go take something else (like judo). I don't even say "And so, they will take kodokan judo!" I didn't say they would take judo at all even -- I said they would take "something else". I did say that BJJ is Kosen Judo. And I still seems to me to be. I still think it is a fad along with a third of the people responding to this poll.
    Why would they take something else though???? Even if BJJ is Kosen Judo 2.0, why would knowing this convince it's newbies that it's less effective at kicking ass?
  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 5:54pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since Forseti is now saying I refused to answer his question, I would like to restate my as yet unanswered question, which I have asked at least two or three times:

    Inflated how?
  3. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:11pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Full Circle
    This is like saying that people would be indifferent to a knife if they knew how similiar it was to a sword. A rose by any other name could still gut you like a fish, see?
    Now I do conceed that people would become indifferent to BJJ if it was shown that the grappling used in tournaments was actually Wing Chun (ground based chi sao - very old lineage....Foshan based), and BJJ was just WWF in gi's....but it hasn't and it isn't....so I still find myself confused with your argument.
    Been here and done this too. Aesopian already said this with his clever ice-water-steam analogy. It wouldn't be a false analogy if it were the fact that

    the popularity of knives were based on the false belief that it was completely different from a sword

    Remember? I said that your average newcomer to BJJ thinks its an art invented by the Gracies with unique street effective techniques. That is why they get interested in it. Now, I'm not saying that it doesn't have street effective techniques. I am saying that its techniques are not as unique as they think. And if they knew this they would be, and here again be careful, more indifferent to BJJ. That is not to say that they would stop thinking that BJJ is street effective. That does not mean that they would think they can get the same training in Kodokan Judo. That just means that they will realize that Kodokan Judo jas some street effective techniques too as well a other similar MAs. They probably don't even really think about it like "grappling" or "submission fighting is the key", so they could even end up in some other striking art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Circle
    The main problem I've found is that your argument has become so wide and encompassing that it's very easy to become lost in what you're trying to say. Whether it's because I'm stupid or not is irrelavent - you stance needs to be more focused and incremental.
    What?!? As if I am the one here going around calling people stupid all the time.

    I have a specific argument. The inflated popularity of BJJ being based on the false impression that the Gracies invented it is key to it and I have had that aspect in it all along the way from the beginning.

    1) BJJ is really just Kosen judo
    2) BJJ is popular because people think it is a unique fighting style invented byt he gracies
    3) When people realize (1), then because of (2) BJJ will become less popular
    4) Basically when something like (3) is the case, that is the definition of a fad.

    Simple and focussed... But the logician out there will tell you that 4 really doesn't follow at all from 3. Now, you can attack 1 and 2.

    You can say that BJJ really isn't just Kosen judo. One of you (you know who) has tried to do that. It was not a bad rebuttal, but I am still kind of of the opinion that it is not enough of a difference to affect my argument. But, fine agree to disagree, perhaps. You can dispute 2. In fact one of you denied it was popular at all. I doubt this will be convincing from anyone to anyone because we all have our own impression of what people say on the street, what white belts talk about and so on. So you probably will have to just agree or disagree with this one too.

    Attacking the drawing of conclusions is pretty nearly ridiculous. Of course it is not a formal logical deduction, so I guess you can always come up with some random piece of bullshit. And however ridiculous it is to attack (3) it is even more ridiculous to attack (4).

    Most of your side of this debate seems content with just making snide remarks though, so there is no fear of any of these things happening...
  4. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    I really am curious about where I said "go take a Kosen judo class". I said they will go take something else
    And this is completely baseless. Which brings us back to what it all really comes down to, and what you've never really addressed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dochter
    Forseti, your argument rests on the prediction that once people realize that bjj came from kosen 100 years ago they will move from bjj to [something else, like judo] training. There is no evidence of that happening and there is no support for the argument that it is the unawareness that prompted the popularity. In short you pulled your argument out of your ass and it is baseless.

    ... and ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    I think that if those that aren't in the know, knew how strong this connection were, they would become much more indifferent to BJJ than they are. That is why I think BJJ is a fad.
    You have unsupported assumptions that have lead to an unsupported prediction. Your model is flawed.
  5. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:19pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Full Circle
    Why would they take something else though???? Even if BJJ is Kosen Judo 2.0, why would knowing this convince it's newbies that it's less effective at kicking ass?
    Well, for lots of reasons. Because its cheaper. Because their judo instructor is a 5th dan and their BJJ instructor is a blue belt. Because they are not purely interested in just street effectiveness, especially now that they know that there isn't something that is a silver bullet.

    But mainly the fad nature of BJJ is that they think it is a silver bullet for street fighting and it isn't and that this impression of theirs is largely based on the impression that the Gracies invented it. This view of theirs (the inflated popularity that it has, Aesopian) will not persist and is already going away and that is why BJJ is a fad. It really doesn't even require that newbies go and take something else -- it is the fading perception of BJJ as the unique set of street effective techniques that the Gracies invented.
  6. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:21pm

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     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If that was true no one would take TKD.

    Edit: BJJ is here (well over in the states to stay). The hypothetical existence of schools offering similiar training isnt going to cause people to abandon their current schools in droves.
    I liked my argument better.
    Last edited by Jekyll; 2/16/2005 6:24pm at .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  7. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:24pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But mainly the fad nature of BJJ is that they think it is a silver bullet for street fighting and it isn't and that this impression of theirs is largely based on the impression that the Gracies invented it.
    Actually whateverinitial popularity bjj had, had nothing to do with people thinking the gracie's invented it. Rather it had to do with the fact that all these superduper karate blackbelts got their asses kicked.

    Like I said your assumptions are flawed.
  8. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:25pm


     Style: Wrath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    I really am curious about where I said "go take a Kosen judo class". I said they will go take something else
    Quote Originally Posted by Dochter
    And this is completely baseless. Which brings us back to what it all really comes down to, and what you've never really addressed:
    What?!? And you criticize my logic! You post in an attempt to demonstrate that I said that someone should just go take Kosen Judo. Then I post my rebuttal to that. And your reply to that rebuttal is completely non sequitur....

    You definitely are a scientist -- just keep randomly trying **** until something works (or no one is looking).
  9. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:29pm


     Style: Wrath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    If that was true no one would take TKD.

    Edit: BJJ is here (well over in the states to stay). The hypothetical existence of schools offering similiar training isnt going to cause people to abandon their current schools in droves.
    I liked my argument better.
    I didn't say that people would drop out of their BJJ class, especially if they took it for years.

    The reason people take TKD is not because it is street effective. Its popularity is more with Soccer Moms sending their kids there and their soccer moms like it more because of things like the olympics and such.

    Again the argument is based on popularity of BJJ being based on a false impression about it. Not all martial arts are popular for the same reasons (and that goes double for TKD and BJJ).
  10. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 6:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    What?!? And you criticize my logic! You post in an attempt to demonstrate that I said that someone should just go take Kosen Judo. Then I post my rebuttal to that. And your reply to that rebuttal is completely non sequitur....
    .
    Your contention that they would go take something else was, and is, completely baseless. That is you have no evidence to support the idea that people will leave bjj for "something else" once they realize it has strong judo roots.

    That is baseless. Calling it such is not non-sequiter. Unless you've also redefined that.

    Seriously, is english your first language? That's not a dig, it is an earnest question. If not, fine that may explain some of the problems here.

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