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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.62%
  • No.

    661 65.38%
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  1. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, Gracie JJ I can see being a Fad, but not Machado JJ.

    Lineage is everything.
  2. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:57am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I kinda lost patience after four or five pages of reading Forseti's argument over and over and skipped over the last few pages, but anyways:

    FORSETI, YOU'RE WRONG, AND A THICKHEADED IDIOT BESIDES.

    Practically all of your arguments are flawed. Let's see: Let us assume for now that Kosen Judo is basically equivalent to BJJ, and that people who want to learn BJJ might as well go to a Kosen school. Problem is, AFAIK, THERE ARE NO KOSEN SCHOOLS TO BE FOUND in the US or Europe or anywhere else except in Japan. So for someone who wants to learn that approach to groundfighting, they'd have to turn to BJJ.

    Unless, and that is your second argument, Judo is just Judo, and instead of finding a Kosen school, you can go to a Kodokan school and learn basically the same thing. This is just not true. You may have a large overlap of techniques, but the strageties, the movement patterns and the goals are different even in the groundfighting part, as JohnnyS has tried to explain to you. I've trained Judo with a 5th dan who specialized in groundfighting in a Judo context, and everytime I drop by at my old club, I can show techniques and variations that are new to her, and it's remarkable how different the approaches are. Try to find a judo club that can teach you sweeps from half-guard. Try to find a good guard player in a judo club.

    That does not take into account that Judo clubs spend between 60 and 90% of their training time doing throws. If you're a wrestler who wants to develop a submission game for MMA, where would you go? Judo or BJJ?

    Next: the claim that BJJ is a fad because its popularity is exaggerated with respect to Judo (Kosen or Kodokan). WRT to Kodokan - Judo is an olympic sport, everyone knows what it looks like. When I tell people "I do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu", they go "that dancing stuff?"
    WRT to Kosen - maybe. Bad marketing on the part of Kosen, if you ask me. Not the Gracies' fault.

    Now, should the question be, is BJJ overrated compared to other arts, or rather, overrated in a context of fighting in general? And it seems that BJJ as a representative of the groundfighting/submission aspect of fighting has reached roughly the popularity it deserves. Most everyone who is serious about unarmed combat trains submissions and submission defense, and that's how it should be. Will it go away? Not as long as there are venues for which it is viable in terms of the rules (such as MMA).
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  3. v1o is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:59am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WSL Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nah you if you want teh REAL Jits, its going to have to be the Carlson lineage
  4. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only people that have issues with the whole Kosen/Kodokan/BJJ thing, in one form or another, are those that haven't done ANY of them.

    Heck Shotokan and TKD have the same techniques !

    Silly argument, and NOTHING to do with this thread.
  5. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:17am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [aisa mode]I have called real physicists (check) and mathematicians (where you at jekyl?) to the thread, fear my wrath. For my next feat, dancing girls.[/asia mode]
  6. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:19am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    The only people that have issues with the whole Kosen/Kodokan/BJJ thing, in one form or another, are those that haven't done ANY of them.

    Heck Shotokan and TKD have the same techniques !

    Silly argument, and NOTHING to do with this thread.
    I think the problem came when instead of just saying you're wrong and off-topic we also tried to demonstrate that he was wrong. Should have ignored the thickheaded dofus and just carried on with the real discussion.
  7. Jekyll is offline
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    .

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:50am

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Given Forseti's pedantic and focused arguments and utter refusal to get sidetracked, why does anyone doubt his mathematical reasoning ability?

    The whole argument is made entirely pointless by submission artists competing together and stealing techniques off each other. You might as well say BJJ is Sambo or Kosen is BJJ.

    I'm sure many Kosen players(they do exist dont they?) who compete will have adapted their game to deal with other styles and taken their techniques.

    Any of these arts could have been in the place BJJ is now had they set up an equivilent of the UFC first. They didnt, so they remain the less popular, equally effective cousins of BJJ.
    Last edited by Jekyll; 2/16/2005 11:52am at .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  8. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 11:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.miyazakidojo.com/main.html

    Kosen Judo in the U.S.
  9. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Marasmos

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    How many grappling championships did these guys win?
    You say what about my rice?
  10. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 12:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's NOT kosen Judo, that is a Japanese version of BJJ.

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