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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    349 34.59%
  • No.

    660 65.41%
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  1. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 9:29am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden
    I have never rolled with a Kosen Judo player
    You likely won't, either, because Kosen is one obscure Judo school and not even really a style. You won't find "Kosen" outside of Japan.
  2. Agent86 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 9:44am


     Style: KM/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How this thread went to BJJ vs judo anyway? Isn't that, like, old? What's next, striking vs grappling?
  3. Psycho Dad is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 9:52am


     Style: BJJ/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Start reading where Forsetti began posting and that's where the whole BJJ/Judo issue sprouted up again.
  4. TylerDurden is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 9:56am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/HapKiDo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    You likely won't, either, because Kosen is one obscure Judo school and not even really a style. You won't find "Kosen" outside of Japan.
    Yeah, that was kind of my point. Sure you could train at a Kosen school instead of BJJ, if you happen to live in Tokyo maybe.
    Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
  5. Agent86 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 9:59am


     Style: KM/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Reis
    Start reading where Forsetti began posting and that's where the whole BJJ/Judo issue sprouted up again.
    Yeah, that was, what, twelve pages ago. I mean, twelve pages, in a day? Over a point that was beaten to death to begin with? Jesus fucking christ, get over it already!
  6. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:00am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent86
    How this thread went to BJJ vs judo anyway? Isn't that, like, old? What's next, striking vs grappling?
    By Forseti's words:

    I didn't say that kodokan was the same as BJJ, I said that Kosen is. Training methodology and philosophy also make the difference simply between two schools of the same style.

    1) BJJ is virtually identical to Kosen Judo.
    2) BJJ is a fad
    3) Kodokan Judo definitely has a significant and effective ground game

    (Kodokan) Judo is missing the most important ground fighting techniques? Because you are saying "equal training time"... so I assume you mean that the BJJ practioner is actually going to learn something radically different than what one would learn in pure newaza in kodokan judo.

    Seriously, though, I'm not saying that they will all find this out and go do kodokan. I'm saying they will do kodokan or sambo or some other thing.

    The point is that BJJ is just moderately different from Kodokan Judo based on expert BJJ testimony that I have dredged up on the internet.

    BJJ places more emphasis on ground work than Kodokan Judo. Even that seems to have been taken from Kosen Judo -- the ground focus, the fighting to submission, no time limit. So, this difference is indeed a difference, but not one that makes BJJ this unique approach to fighting compared to judo, in my opinion.

    It is not the fact that BJJ started with judo. It is the fact that the techniques are identical to the particular style of judo it came from. The reason this relates to it being a fad is that people feel like, and I emphasize feel, BJJ is a unique grappling style with all sorts of effective techniques that you cannot get elsewhere. That is the sorce of its inflated popularity which is what makes it a fad. But, in fact, it is "just judo" which is not to say that it is exactly identical to kodokan judo but that it is only a slight innovation from it by kodokan judo practioners.

    I said, based on what others including an article from jiu-jitsu.net have said about the Kosen tapes, that BJJ=Kosen Judo. I did not say, and have immediately corrected you guys everytime, that kodokan = kosen or that kodokan = bjj.

    But as I have often corrected you, I never contended that kodokan=BJJ.

    But the newbie will get something different -- the actual difference in styles (between kodokan and BJJ). And, that probably doesn't warrant the extra $50 (to the well-informed newbie). In fact, it may warrant the opposite.

    First of all, I said that BJJ is esentially the same art as Kosen judo. Kodokan judo is well-known for its throws and so is quite distinct as I have also had to correct on mischaracterizations of my posts. However, depending on why you are doing it, kodokan judo might be more than sufficient for your needs.

    And, I think this is proving my point. You are acting like BJJ was the only style with a ground game. This seems to be quite false (if nothing else because kodokan judo has always had one) which is why when people realize all of this they will become much more indifferent to BJJ.

    Actually, I saying more than even that. I am saying that a great many people would be willing to or even may choose just regular kodokan judo over BJJ if they knew all of this. Yes, you will not get the same training as you would in BJJ. In fact, going back to my original post on this, I believe I said it something like they might take the $50 judo class over the $100 BJJ class even though they thought Royce Gracie was the man.

    Don't go to my critics to find out what my views are. Things I have not said and that aren't part of any argument I made:

    "Kodokan judo has the same ground game that BJJ has."
    "BJJ is the same as Kodokan Judo."
    "If you sign up for judo you will learn the very same thing you learn in BJJ."

    The Mehdi article doesn't even mention Kosen Judo (I don't think). It was the article off of jiu-jitsu.net that discusses the Kosen Judo tapes and how the author has heard several times about how such an such technique is a unique new technique when he learned it several years ago andhow its right there on these fifty year old judo tapes....

    Kodokan judo is quite distinct from BJJ -- even I said this AND without prompting from you guys. In fact, I have emphatically corrected this mischaracterization of my words. However according to "the experts", BJJ is virtually identical to Kosen Judo.

    Premise 1: The popularity of BJJ is largely founded on the view that BJJ is a unique and effective approach to fighting.
    Premise 2: BJJ is just another form of judo and so is not at all unique and certainly not unique as an approach to fighting
    Conclusion 1: When people eventually find this out, BJJ will become much less popular.
    Conclusion 2: BJJ is a fad.

    I am basing my view that BJJ is virtually identical to Kosen Judo on what BJJ practitioners among others have said about old Kosen Judo tapes they have seen.

    Its connection to judo (the fact that it is identical to a style of judo originating from kodokan) is crucial to my argument since otherwise, I would have no reason to think it is hyped at all. It would be special in the way people think it to be.

    If people knew that it really was a much more minor change from kodokan judo and that such things as the focus on the ground game had more to do with the fact that the judo they were originally taught has such a focus than it does with what people, especially BJJ practitioners, have often suggested that because they discovered that real fights go to the ground, then the popularity of BJJ would be much different.

    My contention is and has always been that BJJ is Kosen Judo.

    If your average newcomer to martial arts knew that BJJ=Kosen Judo then they would be far less tempted to pay $100 a month for lessons from some random BJJ guy in town when they could pay a Kodokan Judo guy $50 a month. They would say to themselves that they can probably get what they want out of Kodokan Judo even though Royce Gracie is the man with BJJ.

    But put simply, Kosen Judo was just a fad that burned out into near nonexistence. So, why would BJJ be any different if it is just Kosen Judo?

    BJJ is not an evolution of Kosen Judo. It is Kosen Judo.
  7. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, the only thing left to say is:

    Fad ? FAD ?!?!?!
    We don't need no stinking fads !!!!!
  8. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:07am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Basically, he think BJJ will lose popularity when we learn the awesome power of ippon and osaekomi!
  9. Agent86 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:07am


     Style: KM/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My eyes hurt.
  10. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2005 10:10am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Basically, he think BJJ will lose popularity when we learn the awesome power of ippon and osaekomi!

    :laughing4

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