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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.62%
  • No.

    661 65.38%
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  1. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:40pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    Forseti,
    Perhaps you need to define how an art becomes a "new style".
    What difference was there between Judo and Jiu-jitsu that allowed Judo to be called a new style?
    What difference was there between Kyokushin and Goju that allowed Kyokushin to be called a new style?
    What difference was there between Taekwondo and Shotokan that allowed Taekwondo to be called a new style?
    I think you have the worng impression about the merit of being called a new style. I do not view kodokan judo, for instance, as an improvement or evolution of jujutsu. It clearly is quite distinct from it for its lack of techniques, though. I don't know anything about goju and kyokushin. I don't know that the distinction between TKD and Shotokan is warranted having done some TKD, myself, and seen shotokan. It almost surely is for kukkiwon TKD since there are different katas and so on, but ITF style seems to be virtually identical. So, TKD really is just "korean karate" as my instructor did in fact characterize it several times. Not even when I was in TKD did I think it was that different from karate -- as different as many think Gracie's style is from something more mundane like judo.

    But the point is that it would be absurd to be so into TKD and simultaneously be indifferent to karate. But that is exactly how a lot of folks are precisely because they have the false beleif that they are that different.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    Since all three of these examples were using the same or a subset of the parent art's techniques at their time of seperation, what defines them as being seperate arts? Could it perhaps be philosophy and training methodology?

    Another point I'd like to make is that you're suggesting that people could simply study Kosen-Judo to get the same results as training in BJJ. There's a couple of flaws with that argument:
    1) Unless you can attend one of the seven universities you're out of luck.
    2) There is a distinct difference in the fighting knowledge between the two arts. In BJJ, due to it's history of challenge matches and NHB, every student has access to someone who has direct knowledge of applying the art in a fight. Kosen has a different history and the students don't have this knowledge of real-world application to fall back on.
    Actually, I saying more than even that. I am saying that a great many people would be willing to or even may choose just regular kodokan judo over BJJ if they knew all of this. Yes, you will not get the same training as you would in BJJ. In fact, going back to my original post on this, I believe I said it something like they might take the $50 judo class over the $100 BJJ class even though they thought Royce Gracie was the man.

    The choice you make has a lot to do with a lot of things. Price, level of instruction, you may not be all consumed with NHB fighting, the possibility of the olympics in judo might be of interest to you.

    And, finally, judo certainly is "alive training" as people have termed it. If, say, you have a striking game, then precisely because of the throwing in judo, you might choose it for the ground game as well as the take down defense rather than BJJ, for instance. But, if you thought that the ground game was just lip service in judo, you might not. There's all kinds of contexts for someone's choosing a style to train in.
  2. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:45pm


     Style: Wrath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys want to know and are supporting members and thus far every one but a few seems to be dissatisfied with my posting. So, why don't you guys pm an admin to post here that he will check me out so that I do not have to further incur the disdain of folks on this forum.

    Or perhaps an admin watching all of this right now would be interested....?
  3. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, you're the one with something to prove, right?
    You say what about my rice?
  4. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First, you didn't address this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dochter
    Forseti, your argument rests on the prediction that once people realize that bjj came from kosen 100 years ago they will move from bjj to judo training. There is no evidence of that happening and there is no support for the argument that it is the unawareness that prompted any popularity. In short you pulled your argument out of your ass and it is baseless.
    Second:
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    So, you're saying that the rules of competition for judo didn't change, but now they are all ground fighting? We spend half the time on ground fighting in my judo class. There's all sorts of stuff on judoinfo.net about ground fighting. These techniques seem to have been present all along, and no one talks about much of anything escept for competing in judo tournaments in my judo class.
    What I was quite clearly saying (clear since everyone but you got it) was that the rules of competition reduced the role of groundfighting in judo competition and therefore the technical proicency of judoka at newaza. This occured over the exact same time that bjj 'newaza' was being refined during vale tudo and subwrestling matches. The end result is a large gap in where ground fighting is between the two. BJJ is not "just judo" anymore than tae kwon do is "just shotokan" (and those two have only been seperated for ~50 years).
  5. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:52pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for your qualifications to teach logic, well they're self evident. Whether or not you do indeed have the degree is your statement and the burden of proof is on you. I think your claims are bs and the burden of proof is on you.
  6. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    You guys want to know and are supporting members and thus far every one but a few seems to be dissatisfied with my posting. So, why don't you guys pm an admin to post here that he will check me out so that I do not have to further incur the disdain of folks on this forum.

    Or perhaps an admin watching all of this right now would be interested....?
    Your passive aggressive bs deserves massive neg repping.

    If you make a statement, isn't the burden of proof on you?
  7. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for your qualifications to teach logic, well they're self evident.
    Exactly.
    Even if you do have a diploma and happened to be a TA in a class that covered logic, it will be nothing but an example of the US education system failing miserably to weed out those incompetent to teach.
    You say what about my rice?
  8. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 8:58pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    (D)ue to (bjj's) history of challenge matches and NHB, every student has access to someone who has direct knowledge of applying the art in a fight. Kosen has a different history and the students don't have this knowledge of real-world application to fall back on.
    This is a great point and one I hadn't even thought of. Are there any bjj schools (not affiliate clubs) without some nhb fighters?
  9. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 9:01pm


     Style: Wrath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright, I just PMed phrost... hopefully in the spirit of exposing BS and just general good naturedness he will check for me.

    As for the rest, we truly are going around in circles. The point is that BJJ is just moderately different from Kodokan Judo based on expert BJJ testimony that I have dredged up on the internet. Of course the BJJers are going to say that that difference, though, is key! (Including the expert I dredged up.) But, I think that if those that aren't in the know, knew how strong this connection were, they would become much more indifferent to BJJ than they are. That is why I think BJJ is a fad.
  10. Full Circle is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 9:03pm


     Style: Chicken Choking

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's slightly dangerous to put too much emphasis on NHB fighting being the defining key. You can get that experience in Judo simply by doing submission fighting. Judo sparring doesn't need to have any sporting rules.

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