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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.58%
  • No.

    662 65.42%
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  1. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:17pm

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     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    Okay, let me break it down for you.

    For instance, some people have said that real fighting is all about ground fighting.
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. Period. We are not discussiong what does or does not entail "real fighting" here, whatever the hell that means. See a trend, anyone?

    This is also what BJJers have said about BJJ -- that its strength is in the fact that they realize that real fightin is all bout ground fighting.
    Nope. Sorry.

    That has been part of the fad, in fact. But the real reason BJJ is all about ground fighting seems to have more to do with the fact that Kosen Judo is all about ground fighting than some sort of insight coming out of years of vale tudo matches or some such thing.
    This simply does not follow. At all. You are not making the connection you think you are making.

    And furthermore, real fighting doesn't seem to be just all about ground fighting or have the emphasis on ground fighting that BJJ has. that's what my "run on" sentence was saying...
    Irrelevant.


    You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this thing we call "logic". Let me educate you. You see, in order for something to be a valid argument, it needs to basically follow a very formal and simple pattern:

    Premise 1, Premise 2... Premise N
    Concluion.

    Here's a simple illustration:

    Premise1: Idiots don't make any sense.
    Premise2: You are an idiot.
    Conclusion: You don't make any sense.

    Your argument is not an argument since it can not be presented in this simple form. Rather, it's a collection of crap that does not follow one from the other, and that in no way proves, or even suggests, the conclusion that you think you're arriving at.

    Educate yourself, fool.
    You say what about my rice?
  2. Full Circle is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:18pm


     Style: Chicken Choking

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    For instance, some people have said that real fighting is all about ground fighting. This is also what BJJers have said about BJJ -- that its strength is in the fact that they realize that real fightin is all bout ground fighting. That has been part of the fad, in fact. But the real reason BJJ is all about ground fighting seems to have more to do with the fact that Kosen Judo is all about ground fighting than some sort of insight coming out of years of vale tudo matches or some such thing.
    I think the Gracie's success opened a lot of peoples eyes. It showed them that striking had a weakness that could be exploited. No one feels comfortable having had such a glaring weakness shown to us and acted accordingly. I myself have never been in a "real" fight that went to the ground, but they all involved grappling. All I have to do is trip or be pulled down and then I effectively lose the advantage my training would give me. Of course most people will never be in a real fight anyway, but we train for "what if?". The Gracie's showed us a rather big "What if?".
  3. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:19pm

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     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Note that it is in fact possible to make a valid argument as to why BJJ is a fad. I will disagree with that argument, and ultimately it will come down to the definition of the word "fad", but in any case, it will be valid and logical.

    However, Forseti is simply not doing so.
    You say what about my rice?
  4. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:21pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Full Circle
    But surely saying that BJJ is another style of Judo (which you imply although not explicitly) because it focuses on certain areas and evolves other whilst redeveloping the training method could be said about Judo in relation to JuJitsu?
    No... I am talking about BJJ practioners looking at old judo tapes and seeing that all the techniques are the same. Jujitsu has strikes and grappling and probably more techniques that are not in judo that judo has techniques. So, jujutsu and judo are not the same. The only difference between Kosen Judo and BJJ seems to be entirely in the fighters. It is stuff like set-ups and such which is more like good fighting than actual repitoir of techniques. And those differences exist within any style. (No body fights quite like Mehdi.... and so on.)

    Again, this is relevant to it being a fad because it is not this unique no-nonsense approach to fighting that people think it is which is mostly where it has gotten its popularity.
  5. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:22pm

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     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    It is stuff like set-ups and such which is more like good fighting than actual repitoir of techniques. And those differences exist within any style. (No body fights quite like Mehdi.... and so on.)
    You have now demonstated to everyone that you have absolutely no basis for judgement about anything that has to do with fighting.
    You say what about my rice?
  6. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:23pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll put in my two cents re: Judo vs BJJ.
    The philosophy is different. Judo is about sport. While some BJJ schools are sport oriented, the training, the rules of competition and the emphasis is still about fighting.
    The goals are different because of this difference of emphasis. Even in newaza. In Judo schools the goal is the pin, with submission very far behind simply because it's safer to pin the guy. So the positional emphasis in Judo is on kesa gatame. In BJJ the positional emphasis is on mount or back mount because this is the best place to be in a fight, and this is reflected in the BJJ point system.
    By paying half the price in a Judo school, you are not going to be learning to fight the same way as a BJJ school. How often in a Judo school do you hear "Keep your head in close to avoid his punches"? How often in Judo schools are you taught to slip punches and clinch? How often in Judo schools are you taught to mount, bitch slap your opponent until he raises his arms to defend himself and then armbar him? Or wait until he rolls over to back choke him?

    Both styles may have similar techniques, but the philosophy behind those styles is really what makes them different.
  7. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:26pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HAPKO3
    You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this thing we call "logic". Let me educate you. You see, in order for something to be a valid argument, it needs to basically follow a very formal and simple pattern:

    Premise 1, Premise 2... Premise N
    Concluion.

    Here's a simple illustration:

    Premise1: Idiots don't make any sense.
    Premise2: You are an idiot.
    Conclusion: You don't make any sense.

    Your argument is not an argument since it can not be presented in this simple form. Rather, it's a collection of crap that does not follow one from the other, and that in no way proves, or even suggests, the conclusion that you think you're arriving at.

    Educate yourself, fool.
    Okay...

    Premise 1: The popularity of BJJ is largely founded on the view that BJJ is a unique and effective approach to fighting.
    Premise 2: BJJ is just another form of judo and so is not at all unique and certainly not unique as an approach to fighting
    Conclusion 1: When people eventually find this out, BJJ will become much less popular.
    Conclusion 2: BJJ is a fad.
  8. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:28pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In other words, because he apparently needs to hear it a lot:

    Because, like I said, people think that BJJ has something unique to offer that makes it way better than other grappling martial arts.
    It does:
    -Training methodology
    -Fighting philosophy
  9. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:31pm


     Style: Wrath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll put in my two cents re: Judo vs BJJ.
    The philosophy is different. Judo is about sport. While some BJJ schools are sport oriented, the training, the rules of competition and the emphasis is still about fighting.
    The goals are different because of this difference of emphasis. Even in newaza. In Judo schools the goal is the pin, with submission very far behind simply because it's safer to pin the guy. So the positional emphasis in Judo is on kesa gatame. In BJJ the positional emphasis is on mount or back mount because this is the best place to be in a fight, and this is reflected in the BJJ point system.
    By paying half the price in a Judo school, you are not going to be learning to fight the same way as a BJJ school. How often in a Judo school do you hear "Keep your head in close to avoid his punches"? How often in Judo schools are you taught to slip punches and clinch? How often in Judo schools are you taught to mount, bitch slap your opponent until he raises his arms to defend himself and then armbar him? Or wait until he rolls over to back choke him?

    Both styles may have similar techniques, but the philosophy behind those styles is really what makes them different.
    I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm just saying that this is not a difference that most newbies would pay double for. And more generally, look at as a kickboxer adding a ground game to his fight if you like. What then? Or what if the choices are a blue belt teaching BJJ to a bunch of white belts or a 9th Dan with several 5th Dans teaching judo to experienced judoka?

    At this point, the newbie to BJJ isn't even going to loook into judo enough to find out. Or at least that's my experience.
  10. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2005 6:32pm

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     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    Okay...

    Premise 1: The popularity of BJJ is largely founded on the view that BJJ is a unique and effective approach to fighting.
    Premise 2: BJJ is just another form of judo and so is not at all unique and certainly not unique as an approach to fighting
    Conclusion 1: When people eventually find this out, BJJ will become much less popular.
    Conclusion 2: BJJ is a fad.
    You're still not following.
    At all.
    Kid, how old are you? And no, this is not a personal attack, this is more of a way for me to determine whether or not I should bother to explain things to you. If you're young, say under 18, then there is hope for you yet. If you're older, then I don't think I need to waste any more time.

    In any case, if you look at what you wrote down, you will see that it's simply plagued by problems.

    Premise one: While the fact that the popularity of BJJ is based on it being an effective approach to figthing is self-evident, you would need to work hard to justify the "uniqueness" criterion, because it is not obvious to say the least.

    Premise two: You were just told by a BJJ balckbelt, who has achieved more in the arts than you ever will, that this is not the case. Anyone else with even a cursory knowledge of BJJ and Judo, and without an agenda, will tell you the same thing. All you need to do is take a look at how judoka train and compete and contrast that with the way BJJ players train and compete. If you don't see it, you're either stupid, blind, or have an agenda.

    Conclusion 1: Does not follow.

    Conclusion 2: Does not follow.

    Take another look at the example I presented earlier.
    You say what about my rice?

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