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View Poll Results: Do you think BJJ is just a fad?

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  • Yes.

    350 34.65%
  • No.

    660 65.35%
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  1. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 3:20pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wait, I'm confused. Doesn't something have to be popular to be considered a fad?
    How many people that do martial arts do bjj?
    It's not even popular in its own field.
  2. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 3:37pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, this has been said once in this thread before but just to stir the BJJ hornets nest some more...

    I voted yes -- that BJJ is a fad. It is just a resurgence of Kosen Judo. It is a fad because it's popularity is based on some good world-class professional fighters and some even better promoting of it. It will never be McDojoized like TKD or Karate because it is not a fad amongst the general public but rather just a fad amongst people really into fighting. Even now a lot of those people realize that BJJ is not the only thing with a good ground game and that such things as Judo, Sambo, etc are really just as good of grappling styles and include a strong ground game.

    "It wasn’t only the Gracie’s emphasis on ground fighting Mehdi didn’t care for, it was the Gracies themselves. "Fighting and lying. I don't like. Judo should make a better person, not someone who fights in the street". He mentions as an example of Gracie mendacity the time Helio announced that a French judo "champion" was learning from him. “He was just a beginner, not a champion”, Mehdi says."

    http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm

    Now lets see the heat! (Somebody was complaining that this discussion was far to civil.)
  3. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 3:45pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everytime someone talks about grappling, someone brings up kosen judo, blah blah blah.
    I'd wager that any modern grappling is far more refined than even kosen. Why? 100 years of progress. There are gi and no-gi tournaments all over the world that have forced a refinement of technique. That is something that as far as I know kosen never experienced.

    Sure there are other competing styles of grappling, straight subwrestlers, sambo etc. What's your point? Is the popularity of those simply a fad too? Forget that no one really heard of either before bjj.
    The fact of the matter is there simply are not enough people doing bjj for it to be a fad. Sure the number of fans of mma etc. may be a fad but how many people actually do bjj? Not that many.
  4. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 3:47pm

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     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti
    Okay, this has been said once in this thread before but just to stir the BJJ hornets nest some more...

    I voted yes -- that BJJ is a fad. It is just a resurgence of Kosen Judo. It is a fad because it's popularity is based on some good world-class professional fighters and some even better promoting of it. It will never be McDojoized like TKD or Karate because it is not a fad amongst the general public but rather just a fad amongst people really into fighting. Even now a lot of those people realize that BJJ is not the only thing with a good ground game and that such things as Judo, Sambo, etc are really just as good of grappling styles and include a strong ground game.

    "It wasn’t only the Gracie’s emphasis on ground fighting Mehdi didn’t care for, it was the Gracies themselves. "Fighting and lying. I don't like. Judo should make a better person, not someone who fights in the street". He mentions as an example of Gracie mendacity the time Helio announced that a French judo "champion" was learning from him. “He was just a beginner, not a champion”, Mehdi says."

    http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm

    Now lets see the heat! (Somebody was complaining that this discussion was far to civil.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Machine
    BJJs techniques are laregly from judo.
    However judo trolls ignore a crucial fact.
    Maeda taught Carlos arounmd 1918.
    Sport BJJ was founded in 73.
    In the 55 years in between BJJ was Judo moves applied to Vale Tudo.
    Which strategically altered Judo alot.Much of BJJ was slipping under punches to enter to a clinch and striking from mount.Things definatly not found in Judo.
    When sport BJJ was invented it was judo techniques, but its point system makes clear that sport BJJ was an attempt to simulate a vale tudo fight.
    In other words when no one submitted the points were givin out in such a way as to give the match to who would have won were strikes involved.
    How well sport BJJ points suceeded in this job is a point for debate.But that sport BJJ is unique among grappling sports in that it was devised by men who had seen MMA fought and evolve over decades and who understood MMA very well.

    To get good at MMA guys needed a way to practice a safe simulation of an MMA match for sparring.THIS is where sport BJJ came from.
    Judo came on the heels of not MMA matches, but of wars.Actual attempts of soldiers to kill each other.
    Kano drew techniques from many schools of Jujutsu, which were not run to turn out sport fighters, but rather soldiers.
    Having read Kanos writings extensively I never once saw him say that Judo was an attempt to safely simulate a fight so as to award to victory to who would have won had strikes been involved.
    BJJ trolls are fools to deny that bjj is very close to judo and draws from it enormously.
    Judo trolls are fools when they pretend BJJ is just Judo with different rules pulled out of some brazilians ass from nowhere.The brazilians had no bias toward ground.
    They just found that without referees to say "break" the ground is where real fights took them.
    :sad11:
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 3:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having been exposed to Kodokan Judo and Kosen Judo and having immersed myself in BJJ as of the last year or so, I can say this:

    BJJ practioners have the nicer thongs.
  6. Forseti is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 4:13pm


     Style: Wrath

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Machine
    The brazilians had no bias toward ground.
    They just found that without referees to say "break" the ground is where real fights took them.
    "Mehdi’s interpretation was different. The Gracies emphasized ground fighting because they "don't know how to throw"."

    "However, when two fighters are evenly matched and the rules permit them to stay in the guard, it's inevitable that this will happen. It's a problem with the rules, or the officiating, rather than the techniques, Sylvio says. Mehdi agrees entirely. It’s the rules that make jiu-jitsu what it is and what it shouldn’t be. That’s precisely what’s wrong with it. That’s the point."

    http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Machine
    But that sport BJJ is unique among grappling sports in that it was devised by men who had seen MMA fought and evolve over decades and who understood MMA very well.
    "I always hear a lot about "New Moves" from Brazil or the latest techniques … Is this a reality? Yes and No. Yes, because as any art evolves, new variations and set ups are 'discovered'. No, because every single time I hear about a new move or counter, it isn't long before I see it in an old Judo book..."

    "Like many others, I thought that in addition to the set-ups, BJJ did have a few things that were truly "new". I thought this right up until I saw the Kosen Judo tapes. I watched as everything I thought had been invented by some Brazilian champion was demonstrated on this old tape from before their time. It started with something as simple as a half guard pass that I learned only a few years ago from a Brazilian friend and purple belt who had just been shown 'the latest moves'. I would then respond with, "Well, DeLaRiva guard is pretty unique to BJJ!". Nope. Low and behold, there are two old-as-hell Japanese guys doing sweeps from what I had always known as DeLaRiva Guard...."

    http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml
  7. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 4:13pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sadly, becoming a moderator has not made you any funnier.
  8. Moleculo is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 4:14pm

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     Style: MT/SUB GRAPPLING

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dochter
    Wait, I'm confused. Doesn't something have to be popular to be considered a fad?
    How many people that do martial arts do bjj?
    It's not even popular in its own field.
    Remember Royce Gracie in the 90's dominating the entire UFC?

    So does the rest of the world.

    It hasn't even begun to reach it's apex as far as popularity goes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu

    http://www.kickboxing.com/knowledge/...anjiujitsu.htm

    You would have to live in a box to not have even heard of BJJ.

    http://www.ufc.tv/
  9. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 4:31pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reese, How many people do bjj? Not that many. How many people are bjj fans? Not that many.

    Go to any grappling event and the only people watching are those participating or those with family participating. Sure the UFC and other events enjoy some more broad based popularity in the US, but no where near the amount they supposedly get in other countries. Guys in their 20's and 30's may know about bjj, but they don't do it. For something to be a fad it has to be done by a lot of people. A lot of people have heard of OJ Simpson. Doesn't mean killing your ex is a fad.

    BJJ isn't even popular among people who consider themselves martial artists (which would include, as much as we hate it, mcdojoists). There is no way bjj can be considered a fad according to any definition of fad I've ever heard of, including this one:
    "A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze."

    Hell, maybe even wearing tapout gear and the like is a fad (though unlike others I know almost everyone in this town that wears that sort of thing because I train with them or know where they train). There still simply aren't enough people grappling, let alone doing straight bjj, for it to be a fad.
  10. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2005 4:33pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Reese
    Remember Royce Gracie in the 90's dominating the entire UFC?

    So does the rest of the world.
    Wanna bet?
    I'd bet a lot of the frat guys and jocks on a college campus do, I'd bet some of the rest of the men might. I'd also bet almost none of the women do.
    And that's the age group most likely to have heard about it.

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