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  1. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2005 8:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    inconsistency - at the same heart rate you're not always putting out the same effort day to day.

    lack of scientific support - there is no evidence training with a HRM improve competitive performance.

    too much data, esp with elaborate HRMs, with little agreement on how to use this information to improve training or performance.

    the lag time in heart rate response to a change in exertion - 15 to 30 sec lag with 2 to 3

    min to stabilize at the new level of exertion.

    its incompatibility with group training.

    it distracts from dangerous road hazards.
  2. katana is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2005 8:29pm

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     Style: BJJ, no-gi, boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by keinhaar
    inconsistency - at the same heart rate you're not always putting out the same effort day to day.
    Which for cycling is why I use a wattmeter now and not a HRM. But that's not helpful if you're jogging.

    lack of scientific support - there is no evidence training with a HRM improve competitive performance.

    too much data, esp with elaborate HRMs, with little agreement on how to use this information to improve training or performance.
    No disagreement on some of this. Although I found a structured training program around HRM is a lot better than an unstructured one around random training. Alas the riders today who use structured training with HRM are better than riders who don't do this from what I've seen.

    the lag time in heart rate response to a change in exertion - 15 to 30 sec lag with 2 to 3
    Yes. You should use perceived exertion levels in this case, but an HRM can allow you to calibrate what this is for your body if you don't know already.

    its incompatibility with group training.
    Group training is usually incompatible with independent fitness training. They always want to go too fast or too slow for what's in your training schedule that day or what your body can handle. I'll use group training to train group tactics but not as a structured workout.

    it distracts from dangerous road hazards.
    Don't disagree with that. Use the sound feature on the watch to tell you if you're working too hard/not hard enough.

    My point is that HRM training leads to more structure. It's not perfect but it sure beats having no structure in place if you're training for specific events or using periodization.
  3. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2005 9:08pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    why I use a wattmeter
    Now you've gone off the deep end.
  4. Macistani is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2005 10:20pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok...so, heartrate isn't a good measure...

    What about dry heaves? Is running until I dryheave a good measure?
  5. virtual_mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2005 11:44am

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     Style: 7 Star

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Macistani
    ok...so, heartrate isn't a good measure...

    What about dry heaves? Is running until I dryheave a good measure?
    There are a lot of people that swear by heart rate monitors in tracking fitness.

    You average heartrate is 170 for a 5 mile run right now. Lets say that 3 months from now your average heart rate for the same run is 165. Has your fitness improved? Yes it has. Your cardio vascular system is working less to produce the desired result.

    The comments about the 220 minus your age not being a good formula to find your max heart rate are accurate. That's why I said it's a widely accepted standard guide. You can use a heart rate monitor to find your max heart rate or at least get closer than the 220 minus your age formula.

    Keeping track of your heart rate during a working also helps in letting you know at what percent of maximum you are at. Are you pushing too hard/not enough? Yes you can also do this with "perceived effort" but what is more accurate? Something that is actually measuring every beat of your heart or how you think you feel.

    Here's an article on training with heart rate monitor: http://www.tri-ecoach.com/art2.htm
    Here's another: http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=176
    And another: http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/1127.shtml

    ONe last piece of advice. Don't base decissions on what you hear on a discussion board. This is a great place to get opinions, and you've got a few different ones here. Always do some of your own research to make an informed decission. :book1:

    Good luck with the dry heaves! :thumbsup:
  6. Mediocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2005 1:27pm


     Style: Fabio Santos BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You average heartrate is 170 for a 5 mile run right now. Lets say that 3 months from now your average heart rate for the same run is 165. Has your fitness improved? Yes it has.
    Not necessarily.


    Your cardio vascular system is working less to produce the desired result.
    This well illustrates the problem with a "heart rate" mindset: the heart does not arbitrarily beat.
  7. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2005 11:20pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^Somebody pithed a frog in high school.
  8. virtual_mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2005 12:01pm

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     Style: 7 Star

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    Not necessarily.

    This well illustrates the problem with a "heart rate" mindset: the heart does not arbitrarily beat.
    I see your point. Thanks for that detailed and informative post.
  9. Mediocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2005 6:09pm


     Style: Fabio Santos BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Elements affecting running performance that are not physiological (not comprehensive):

    -equipment (shoes, clothing, etc.)
    -ambient temperature
    -ambient humidity
    -surface consistency/irregularity
    -improved understanding of technique


    Elements affecting running performance that are physiological but are not markers of improved fitness (not comprehensive):

    -improved neurological skill
    -relative stress levels
    -sleep habits
    -dietary habits
    -body weight


    Now, some may decry these minor elements as trivial differences. We're talking about a 3% change in heart rate (170 to 165). One could attain 3% better performance by optimizing any ONE of the above elements (in many cases, more than 3%).

    The only conclusion that can be extrapolated between the 170 scenario and the 165 scenario is that the body placed less demand on the cardiovascular system in the latter versus the former. Take careful note of what this conclusion means in terms of how the body works.
  10. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2005 6:20am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mediocrates is correct. Besides, in a practical world, what's really the point of measuring target heart rate as a determination of fitness? Unless your goal is specifically to lower your THR, it's pointless. Virtually every athlete improves fitness as a means to enhanced performance. So a better judge of your improvement would be to measure those factors relevant to your performance. In the case of running, this would be an increased distance traveled, or reduced time for the same distance, etc. Doing this not only takes all of the factors Mediocrates mentioned into account, but is also a much easier and more useful way of measuring progress in the real world.
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