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  1. Fighty McGee is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 1:20pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are so many arguments on the effectiveness of Wing Chun, as well as internal political battles about the “real” Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun. I think all of this can be circumnavigated if we look at Wing Chun as a tool, an aid to fighting ability, rather than as a constrictive mode of fighting. If one takes the skills learned from Wing Chun and applies them in a more naturalistic fashion, then many of the shortcomings of the style don’t come into play.

    For instance, many arguments have been made about the ridiculousness of deep Karate and Kung Fu stances; the way they handicap natural movement. This criticism is usually made by people outside of the art, or beginners that think the stances are some static posture, rather than for leg training and power development. In real fighting circumstances, one does not adopt a cat stance or a horse stance, put hands into chop-socky position and emit a yowl or kiai. Instead (and here I am paraphrasing a conclusion that many of you have made on this board) the stances and hand motions come into play sporadically during a fight, as momentary ways to increase power, break a technique, create momentum, etc. So, we can say with certainty that training deep, unnatural stances and limb motions is a means to an end. The end result being that our natural reactions and abilities are enhanced by technique, but not restricted by it.

    So, that being said, let’s examine the study vs. the application of Wing Chun (however you want to spell it). I firmly believe that the biggest problem with Wing Chun is the belief of the majority of its practitioners: that practice and application are the same. Hence, we get Wing Chun fighters that are stuck in the horse stance, paralyzed during fights with more fluid and mobile opponents. The study of Wing Chun should enhance, rather than limit one’s abilities. Its hand speed and sensitivity are great for stand up boxing. In higher levels of training, its leg work (such as knee and foot trapping: “sticky legs”) is an incredible tool for infighting. So why do many Wing Chun practitioners face off with their opponents from a horse stance?

    I believe that there is a big gap in between the upholding of tradition and the understanding of basic fundamental fighting necessities. The classic problem I’ve observed among Wing Chun schools is the idea of their stance and footwork as the only way (the right way, the Wing Chun way) to use one’s legs during a fight, rather than a set of very useful and effective ingredients in what should be more natural movement. One can use the same observations about the hand positioning. Again, it SHOULD be a set of great techniques and motions for enhancing one’s abilities, instead of limiting them.

    Look, for instance, at the UFC video featuring the Wing Chun guy. This is a prime example of the problem. This WC joker is in a full horse stance, waddling towards his opponent as though he were encumbered by a fully loaded diaper. Meanwhile, his opponent has charged in using his full natural ability, no stilted, hampered posture… takedown and beating commence. As an example of a more fluid, and adaptable use of Wing Chun, look at the Sifu Garrado video (yes, I know it’s cheesy.) Although this is a self-promotion video (Super-Sifu beats ALL!!), it shows some of the effectiveness a WC practitioner can have when not confined to the horse stance and the classic hand positioning. I only use these as examples familiar to this board. In my life experience, I have seen good WC fighters that understood the idea of fluidity and adaptation, and then, sadly I have seen the rest. I think the argument of “99% of this style sucks!” comes from this, and can also be used on other styles with low or seemingly static stances or awkward limb positioning. I propose that the difference between good and lousy is the comprehension and adaptation of technique to fit the circumstance, instead of trying to fit the fight around the technique…

    Flames, anyone?




    "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women." ~Conan the Barbarian, when asked "What is best in life?"
  2. Stold2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 2:24pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was never really impressed by Grados. I mean, sure, nice one inch punch, nice fluid movements, but even when he demonstates techniques it is so unbelievably cheesy. No fighter throws a punch outside of his range without moving forward, unless it's a jab to test the defenses of the opponent.

    Of course, it's easier to just say it's the fighter, not the style.
  3. Fighty McGee is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 4:00pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oops, I meant to write Grados, not 'Garrado'. Yeah, I only meant to use that video as an example that would be familiar to this forum. Personal anectdotes don't really count for much. I wanted to demonstrate a counter to the movement of the UFC match. I am by no means saying that Sifu Grados is an invincible fighter, merely that it seems that he has a pretty good understanding of adapting natural movement to the WC style or visa-versa. Of course his self-promo video is going to have all sorts of dummies getting whomped by him. To extend the idea of my original post, I think that many WC schools teach adherence to strict WC body positioning as doctrine, out of ignorance or as a means to keep the students worse off than the teachers. I personally like the tools of WC, but am amazed at the inability of some practitioners to defend themselves because of strict adherence to the WC fighting structure. It should be a guide, not a law, especially considering that the whomever the WC practitioner fights is probably not gonna hunker down into a deep goat stance and chi sao with him. It can be (and often is) the fighter, not the style that matters, but in this case, I believe it is a good style, which creates bad fighters due to a flaw in philosophy and methodology.

    "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women." ~Conan the Barbarian, when asked "What is best in life?"
  4. Stold2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 4:03pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hm, well, I find that the traditional WC stance and posture only works if you are completely on the offense. The moment you stop the offensive or hesitate is when ya get whomped in the face.

    I think that if an instructor tells a student to get in goat stance and chase the other guy's hands, he should prolly be fired.
  5. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 5:02pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    please explain this line

    "If one takes the skills learned from Wing Chun and applies them in a more naturalistic fashion"

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    There are only three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.
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  6. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 5:06pm

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     Style: Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "So why do many Wing Chun practitioners face off with their opponents from a horse stance? "

    Good question. Who are these people? CAn I kick them in the nuts?

    I don't spar/fight in horse stance position. Also the side shuffling movements are taught and practiced at my training centre.

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    There are only three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.
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  7. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 5:09pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "I propose that the difference between good and lousy is the comprehension and adaptation of technique to fit the circumstance, instead of trying to fit the fight around the technique…"

    Totally true. Though the word "lousy" does nor really fit in with the other big words there.

    :)

    Do you practice WC yourself?

    --

    There are only three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.
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  8. Fighty McGee is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 5:39pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, offline for a bit.
    Naturalistic fashion: I mean, starting any encounter in a more natural, comfortable, mobile stance. I believe the WC stances are meant to be dropped into during confrontation to enhance technique or block the lower gate, not an end unto themselves.

    By horse stance I mean goat stance, the standard stance, or its side stance variation. The side stance is more mobile, but only slightly so. I think a good compromise for mobility and guard would be a modified boxing stance, knees and toes inwards slightly. Just personal preference.

    Please do not kick nuts.

    I have a soft spot for LOUSY.

    I studied Wing Chun as a teenager, from 13-16. I had lots of opportunities to defend myself using Wing Chun techniques, but never in a martial duel fashion, getting onto a stance, growling. :)




    "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women." ~Conan the Barbarian, when asked "What is best in life?"
  9. Omen Stone is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 5:57pm


     Style: non

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OMG what is this, this is not natural for these forums I must fix this!

    "GRAAApPHLING RULZ, Kung FU is FOR WEAK LITTLE BYATCHS!"

    lol j/k
    I am glad to see this written it give me hope that using a TMA isn't all that unless.

    "A California man has been taken to court for stalking Anna Nicole Smith. The man has been charged with invasion of privacy, illegal trespassing, and having really bad taste."-Conan
  10. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2003 7:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Grados moves and hits in a "stiff" fashion, esepcially when you see him sparring with the guy in the red headprotector: nothing really fluid about that, and he uses a horse-like stance..

    I appreciate your views: A Video clip of "better" or "proper" Wing Chun would be nice, and maybe it being used even (do you have that by any chance McGee)? :)
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
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