Posted On:2/17/2003 11:01am
O.k. I wiil start off letting everyone know I am dyslexic and never spell the same word twice so if you hate typos you may want to stop reading now.
I have been in the martial arts nor for 24 years. I have taught other styles of martial arts and currently teach my own to local law inforcement. As I look around this site I see a trend twoards grappling and a disdain twords anything else. Not all of you feel this way but a goof lot of you. Right now I am aware that grappling is the big trend in the martial arts at the moment. My issue is that grappling is an incomplete art. I also argue with the classical martial artist that hates grappling because it is a needed part of training. I also admit that my comments are based largely on the type of grapplings that I am famialer with and have studdied. With tha being said here is my two cents. Taking someone to the ground is great if you are 5'6 and 240 fighting a guy who is 6'2 and 150. You will be at an advantage weight wise on the ground and the height will not matter as much on the ground. But if you weigh 140 and the other guy weighs 200 you will be killed once on the ground. You need to know how to fight if you get on the ground but don't try and got there. Ufc is a sport. In the real world you will be fighting on tar and broken glass in alley ways. Roling around on broken glass sucks. Now matter how tuff you are. Also in a REAL fight al bets are off. Any guy trying to grapple with me is going to get bitten poked and jammed in every senstive spot.
The problem with these sports is the grapplers fight for real win the train!! The karateka and kung fu stylist only play at fighting. The only traing for a real fight is a real fight. It is not the style that wins but the fighter. A tai fighter with six months of training would kill the averedge karteka with 7 years of training. Not because of the style but because of thr training. In a real fight or fighting training you began to see what works and what does not. Also what works for you will not work for someone else. You must take the best from the best and discard the rest. Movie karate is just that. People who judge from a movie are completly wrong. Both jackie chan and bruce lee would say how they would fight in life compared to a movie is way diffrent. The less you move in a fight the better the more you show in a m ovie the better. I am a big believer in fighters learning the basics of three types of training. 1 Some time of karate or spaced fighting 2 some type of close in combat like wing chun. 3 grappling like hapkido or brazilian jujitsu. Then take what you can use and loose the rest. Their are lots of moves my officers are great at but can not use on the job because they must stand with the weapon facing away from the oppenit at all times. They also do not want to go to the ground with all the carry.
These are some of my thoughts. sorry about the spelling. would be glad to get some good feed back besides the ones i hear the most of. You can't spell. Nothing to do with what I said. Grappling rules you suck. That means you know nothing about anything. I welcome real thoughts. My key is to never stop learning so I open to other peoples thoughts. thanks
Such as thou art, sometime was I.
Posted On:2/17/2003 11:26am
Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu
I don't think you'll actually find too many people on this website that are just grappling fanatics. In fact, most of the time grappling is mounting a simple defense against some ridiculous hot lava or gang of ninjas scenario. Some points:
But if you weigh 140 and the other guy weighs 200 you will be killed once on the ground.
1. Not true. But true enough in spirit.
2. A good fighter is aware of his environment.
3. Hapkido is not grappling.
Any guy trying to grapple with me is going to get bitten poked and jammed in every senstive spot.
4. Not sure you understand grappling. We're not talking about high school wrestling.
**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
Posted On:2/17/2003 11:33am
True hapkido is filled with ground fighting. I know most practice the bong so han hapkido. The pure hapkido has alot of grappling in it. I did also study BJJ for close to two years. I liked it but the guys who took thought this was all there was. The guy who taught it was also my JKD teacher. The real reason he was as good as he was is the two made a real well rounded fighter. He taught the two style seprate though and not togeather. I think that is a shame.
Posted On:2/17/2003 12:01pm
Well, the reason why you learn ground fighting is because its so easy to get knocked down. If two bodies are colliding and any part of that other person clips you, your ass is going down, you better have some idea of winning on the ground or at least getting to your feet.
I know some grapplers think, the best way to neutralize an opponent's advantage in strength and hence striking, is to put him on the ground. And that works, Royce demonstrated that it can. But for me, I would never want to take a bigger guy down unless I'm in control.
Getting jumped by a gang of Ninjas isn't that far-fetched lol. I remember, in Highschool when I got into a fight right in the middle of a crowded hallway, when I was wrestling with one kid his two buddies were trying to rearrange my facial features on the side. No I'm not saying Kung Fu would have saved my ass on that occassion but the fact that I managed to stay on my feet saved my butt, if I was on the ground it would have been kicks to the head rather than punches.
The Man with No Neck
Style: submission wrestling
Good to see a new contestant. If anyone on here could be considered a pure 'grappler', I guess it would be me. I don't think it's the last word (I'm taking kickboxing classes twice a week now), but it has a lot going for it. The main reason I think people (especially cops) should learn ground-fighting is because you might very well wind up on the ground against your will. It's something you learn as a worst-case scenario. I train with quite a few law enforcement guys and a lot of them have wound up on the asphalt during scuffles with assorted nuts and flakes. Doesn't mean they want to be there, but **** happens.
As for UFC and Pride, if you've watched any of the recent ones, striking is dominating now. I'm sure the pendulum will swing back and forth like it always does, but right now the boxers and Muay Thai guys are winning the fights.
I've seen the 'learn to fight by going out and fighting' arguement before. That's a good way to wind up in either a) jail b) the hospital or c) the morgue. Getting in enough 'real' fights to actually build skill is very risky and not something I'd recommend. Sure, real fights can teach you some valuable lessons. Once you open that Pandora's Box, though, you better be ready for anything that happens.
Like Osiris said, not too many people around here are 100% grappling fanatics. MMA/NHB has quite a few advocates (me included) but there are a lot of different stylists floating around. If I had to state a common philosophy for this board, it would be the JKD "use the effective, discard the ineffective" school of thought. Whatever works, that's the way to go.
"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"
"I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."
- George Plimpton
Posted On:2/17/2003 12:07pm
Style: JKD, BJJ
Ground is just the fourth range. You gotta learn all the ranges, though.
Part of the thing these days is the recognition that the third and fourth ranges (trapping - grappling) don't get trained, or haven't been trained, properly in any of the martial arts. Since JKD Concepts had its shot-gun wedding with BJJ, it's become the MOST nearly complete art. Kinda. Sorta. If you train it right.
BJJ's pretty "sporty" though, I think.
(board breaks with a kick)
"Is that it? I feel like I should bow, or have honor or something."
-- Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Once More, With Feeling"
Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
Posted On:2/17/2003 12:21pm
There's too many possibilities to consider in a real life situation. For one thing, you may not always be squared up in a fight and en garde. Some dickwad was swinging at me while I was sitting on couch's arm with my back turned to him, he could have just very easily tackled me instead of punching me.
Posted On:2/17/2003 12:44pm
I am curious as to who you think teaches "pure hapkido," and why Bong Soo Han wouldn't be one of them?
Posted On:2/17/2003 12:51pm
actually, because of my build
i am a competant striker and i like to strike
though i am aware that my grappling skills are CRAP
and i only read half of the first post, things are getting blurry
There are only three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.
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Posted On:2/17/2003 1:12pm
Although I would never say I know it all about the martial arts hapkido is one I come close to. Bong soo han did learn a little from the founder but he added more kicks and strikes and almost took out grappling completely. Does not mean his version is bad just diffrent form the origanal. My master was the founders only student to stay with from start to finish. The pure from of hapkidi is aki-jujitsu with strikes and kick thrown in where it could make it more effective.
Bong soo han made it more flashy. These are the founders thoughts not just mine. I was very lucky to study with korea's best. Hapkido was past down to him from our founder. I have his website in korea if you have a translater on your p.c. and wish to see it. He is an amazing man to say the least.
I am curious as to who you think teaches "pure hapkido," and why Bong Soo Han wouldn't be one of them?
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